The Slippery Emergent Slope

[Apprehended]

Have you ever walked through the woods and found a fallen Hickory or Oak tree uprooted and lying on the ground? I have. Have you ever gone back over the same territory and found that the giant tree had righted itself back up on its roots or if it had fallen from a stump uprighted itself to sit again squarely on the stump with new life in its roots? No? Neither have I. I have found many severed trees both from the roots and also from a stump. Yet, I have never found a tree that said, "Wow! I made a mistake by falling in this direction. I think I will get back up on my stump and draw new life from the ground." Each time that I've gone back over the same territory, the tree was still lying where they fell with progressive decay seen in ever increasing measure each time I pass by.

It seems that the scriptures say something about that from a spiritual sense. Ah yes, here it is:

Ecc 11:3 If the clouds be full of rain, they empty [themselves] upon the earth: and if the tree fall toward the south, or toward the north, in the place where the tree falleth, there it shall be.

There are certain things taken away from a man after he dies. Of course, he is deprived of his body, but there are other things that he is deprived of as well. He cannot repent. His affections that he dies with are cemented through out eternity, as is his total spiritual state, ages without end...the eons of eons. The tree cannot say to himself after he is hewn down, "I don't like lying in this direction. I'm going to get back up on my stump and the next time I fall, I will fall in a different direction." It has never happened.

For this reason Paul so much urged us in his letter to Colossi to "Set (cement them) your affections on things above and not on things below." The cause of heaven or hell which is realized by man after he leaves his earthly house, is that his affections within him before he departs this life calls to and answers to those affections found in his eternal home. Daily, a man's affections while in this life, calls to and responds to the affections from which they originate...whether it be heaven or hell. After death, he then goes to his long home, whether it be heaven or hell.

Ecc. 12:5 ...because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: This is so when the silver cord is loosed and his spirit is broken away from the body, it then takes its journey to dwell with kindred spirits forever.

Last night before I went to bed, I called to my long home where my affections lie. This morning quite early, I again called to my long home where my affections continue to lie. Each time, I get a signal back from home...my long home. Let us carefully set our affections on things above.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Have you ever walked through the woods and found a fallen Hickory or Oak tree uprooted and lying on the ground? I have. Have you ever gone back over the same territory and found that the giant tree had righted itself back up on its roots or if it had fallen from a stump uprighted itself to sit again squarely on the stump with new life in its roots? No? Neither have I. I have found many severed trees both from the roots and also from a stump. Yet, I have never found a tree that said, "Wow! I made a mistake by falling in this direction. I think I will get back up on my stump and draw new life from the ground." Each time that I've gone back over the same territory, the tree was still lying where they fell with progressive decay seen in ever increasing measure each time I pass by.

It seems that the scriptures say something about that from a spiritual sense. Ah yes, here it is:

Ecc 11:3 If the clouds be full of rain, they empty [themselves] upon the earth: and if the tree fall toward the south, or toward the north, in the place where the tree falleth, there it shall be.

There are certain things taken away from a man after he dies. Of course, he is deprived of his body, but there are other things that he is deprived of as well. He cannot repent. His affections that he dies with are cemented through out eternity, as is his total spiritual state, ages without end...the eons of eons. The tree cannot say to himself after he is hewn down, "I don't like lying in this direction. I'm going to get back up on my stump and the next time I fall, I will fall in a different direction." It has never happened.

For this reason Paul so much urged us in his letter to Colossi to "Set (cement them) your affections on things above and not on things below." The cause of heaven or hell which is realized by man after he leaves his earthly house, is that his affections within him before he departs this life calls to and answers to those affections found in his eternal home. Daily, a man's affections while in this life, calls to and responds to the affections from which they originate...whether it be heaven or hell. After death, he then goes to his long home, whether it be heaven or hell.

Ecc. 12:5 ...because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: This is so when the silver cord is loosed and his spirit is broken away from the body, it then takes its journey to dwell with kindred spirits forever.

Last night before I went to bed, I called to my long home where my affections lie. This morning quite early, I again called to my long home where my affections continue to lie. Each time, I get a signal back from home...my long home. Let us carefully set our affections on things above.

7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. 8Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.

14For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

When the tree falls, God still has a plan for that tree, if we want to compare to human life. He reaps the spirit from that fallen man, to judge (the setting of things right) that life, to reward according to the works rendered on the earth.

The spirit of the individual is the gold, that the refiner harvests from the dross. JMHO

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by crakjak

7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. 8Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.

14For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

When the tree falls, God still has a plan for that tree, if we want to compare to human life. He reaps the spirit from that fallen man, to judge (the setting of things right) that life, to reward according to the works rendered on the earth.

The spirit of the individual is the gold, that the refiner harvests from the dross. JMHO

bump!!

[Socialite]

It is only because of the doctrine of judgment & hell that Jesus’ proclamation of grace & love are so brilliant & astounding.

I will try to jump into this discussion later, and provide a response to crakjak's reasoning.

[Pastor Keith]

Well the latest is that those who have read Rob Bell's book, say that he isn't blatant about being a universalist. I think he wanted to be controversial to sale more books.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Pastor Keith

Well the latest is that those who have read Rob Bell's book, say that he isn't blatant about being a universalist. I think he wanted to be controversial to sale more books.

I have pre-ordered the book on my new kindle, should show up about the 16th, will let you know my opinion of his opinion.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Socialite

It is only because of the doctrine of judgment & hell that Jesus’ proclamation of grace & love are so brilliant & astounding.

I will try to jump into this discussion later, and provide a response to crakjak's reasoning.

I don't understand this reasoning, all things proceed from God, how could such a doctrine come from Him? Temporal judgment is one thing, as a parent disciplines a wayward child. I believe God know hows to discipline His most wayward, it may not be pretty or pleasant, but effective it will be.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

S.G. Norris was teaching at the Bogalusa, La. Bible Conference about 1965, as I recall. In his discourse on his understanding of the light doctrine, he believed that his Presbyterian Aunt who had raised him would be saved since she was a godly woman, prayed much, etc., etc.... He explained that she never heard the Acts 2:38 message. He felt sure had she heard it, she would have obeyed it. Thought she had long since been dead at the time, he felt sure he would see her in heaven.

I raised my hand. He ignored me. I kept my hand raised. There were a house full of preachers there including the entire La. Dist. Board and Supt. C.G. Weeks and my pastor G.A. Mangun, none of whom believed Norris' doctrine. I was surprised that none of them spoke up.

Since he did not recognize my hand, I stood up with a still raised hand. He could not ignore this young, crew cut, wet behind the ears, fool-hardy enough to question his eminence, the venerable S.G. Norris.

"YEAH, WHADAYAWANT," he growled looking at me with eyes blazing with disdain.

"Brother Norris, in view of what you just said concerning your aunt, would you please explain the scripture, "If our Gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are LOST?"

He looked at me with fury and swelled up like a toad. He slowly walked down to where I was still standing. He grabbed me by the left arm and I could feel his finger nails digging into my flesh. He then pulled me out from where I was standing, and leading me up one aisle and down the other asking me periodically, "WELL WHADAYALOOKIN'FOR????? He repeatedly asked me as he looked from left to right. "TELL ME WHEN YOU SEE IT..."

Finally, when I said, "I have no idea what WE are looking for," he took me back to where I was standing, pushed me into the pew and said, "THAT'SWHATI'MTALKINGBOUT." If you don't have any idea what you are looking for, how is it that you are going to find it."

I stood back up to ask him again how he would explain, "If our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost." The wife whispered, "It might be better to just let him off the hook."

I did. I sat back down. But, I have that incident on an old reel to reel tape recording.

What would you have said if he replied, the Gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

1 Corinthians 15

Our gospel is not acts 2:38, that is our response to the gospel. When did acts 2:38 become the gospel?

Peter preached the gospel in Acts 2 and then in Acts 2:37 the men asked him what shall they do and he told them.

If an Episcopal lady or in S.G. Norris's case, his aunt, heard the gospel and then she was told to put her faith in the creeds, rituals, prayers of that church and she did.. what light did she respond to?

While I certainly am not convinced of everything the light doctrine espouses, there is merit to his arguments.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

What would you have said if he replied, the Gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

1 Corinthians 15

Our gospel is not acts 2:38, that is our response to the gospel. When did acts 2:38 become the gospel?

Peter preached the gospel in Acts 2 and then in Acts 2:37 the men asked him what shall they do and he told them.

If an Episcopal lady or in S.G. Norris's case, his aunt, heard the gospel and then she was told to put her faith in the creeds, rituals, prayers of that church and she did.. what light did she respond to?

While I certainly am not convinced of everything the light doctrine espouses, there is merit to his arguments.

Should I give you the good news (gospel) or the bad news first?

The bad news is man is lost in this world without hope. He's doomed. Nothing but death and destruction awaits. When he dies, what is there left for him except eternal death. Could I make it more gloomier? It's bad news from start to finish. There's no hope, no promises and no way out.

Now after feeling the despair that originate in that kind of bad news, let us now speak of the good news. Jesus, the Son (Lamb) of God came into the world to take away the sin of the whole world and to save sinners. He became the lamb of God, that through Him and his vicarious suffering and death, he took the penalty that was intended for mankind. He was buried and rose again effecting the whole plan of redemption for all mankind world wide from then henceforth for as long as there are men on the earth. This is the good news (gospel) to the whole world and for all man kind in the general sense.

Well, so what? A lot of good that does for me! So, Jesus died, was buried and rose again. How does that help me?

Good question. I only told you of the good news in the general sense that makes available good news to you as an individual. Now. If you truly believe that with all of your heart, there is good news for you in the specific sense. Are you ready to hear how this can become good news to you? Here is the gospel in the specific sense to you as one individual drawn from the gospel of Jesus Christ in the general sense which you have confessed and believe with your whole heart:

Because you are a sinner, which is your death warrant by which there is an eternal separation from God because of it. The sin question must be settled for you in that specific sense so that you may be absolved of the guilt of sin. To do that, you must appropriate for yourself that which the Lamb of God provided for you by his death, burial and resurrection.

First, you must turn away from your sin. If you were a serial killer. You must stop killing. If you worshiped other Gods, you must now worship the true God, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Alpha and Omega....the Almighty, the eternal one. If you are a fornicator, adulterer, liar, thief, on and on, you must cease from your sin because all sin is the transgression of God's law. This is DEATH to your old man who formerly lived in this world according to the deeds of your flesh.

Then you must show that repentance by going to the water to be buried in the Name of Jesus Christ by which action you not only show forth Christ's death in your own body, you also become identified with His death, burial and resurrection to rise up out of the water to walk in a new life in God.

This, as stated above is the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ both in the general and also the specific sense.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

What would you have said if he replied, the Gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

1 Corinthians 15

Our gospel is not acts 2:38, that is our response to the gospel. When did acts 2:38 become the gospel?

Peter preached the gospel in Acts 2 and then in Acts 2:37 the men asked him what shall they do and he told them.

If an Episcopal lady or in S.G. Norris's case, his aunt, heard the gospel and then she was told to put her faith in the creeds, rituals, prayers of that church and she did.. what light did she respond to?

While I certainly am not convinced of everything the light doctrine espouses, there is merit to his arguments.

None.

In spite of what S.G. Norris believed, his aunt placed her faith in what is condemned already...the world. There is no light there. It is absolute and total darkness.

Do freak out and go nuts here. Be calm and civil. If you will permit, I am only expressing what I have gained from the study of the Word of God for about 70 years...ever since I was born.