Man made standards. Who do they think they are??

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I said, "ideology." Not "theology."

As to what it may be, I can only guess from your posts. If you feel that you have been misunderstood, then it is incumbent upon you to clarify and expound. Your readers can only respond to what we seen in the little boxes on our screens.

What have I expressed in posts? How can I defend what I have no idea what you are assuming? I have posted quite a bit.

Standards are not 1F2's ideology. They are standards that churches have made based on what they read in scripture. So i embrace what I agree with and don't embrace what I don't. What have you gained from my post?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Exactly. Modesty or not? Talk about missing the whole point and greater picture/message!

No one missed the greater picture. We simply were comparing the definition of "apron" and "clothed". I could have copied and pasted the same thing Sam posted. That wasn't what we were discussing. Sometimes you can be so arrogant and insulting.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by pelathais

"Properly and completely covered" is something that we impose upon the text many centuries after humans had existed in hunter-gatherer societies and long after the development of the loom, whose products influenced the phrasing that we read.

As to the blood sacrifice element here, that does seem apparent to me but it is not explicit. However, one must ask, "Did God make the 'new' garments for Adam and Eve because their own garments failed to measure up to His own modesty standards, or did He do so that He might set the precedent for blood sacrifice?"

Adam and Eve "saw that they were naked." This was a "guilt" or "shame" that they themselves are said to have felt even away from the presence of God. They reacted to that feeling by covering up whatever it was that made them feel "naked." As I said, the stem here is "aprons around the waist."

God then is said to make "coverings." The stem here implies something more modest in our modern conventional sense, but then again it can be as ambiguous as "aprons around the waist." Either way, since this is the etiology for any kind of garment at all - it is important to see that "covering" and the idea of modesty is the point and not that Adam was made a fine pair of trousers while Eve was made a pretty gingham dress.

The only thing I would point out is in doing the blood sacrifice thingy God did not have to also make clothes for them, but when he did he made coats not aprons

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

LOL! I was just messin' with you.

Lol

Thanks okay.

We are "one with Christ" when we submit ourselves to Him. You are coming across as though He picks us up and carries us along with or without our consent and I don't believe He does that.

I believe we are one with Him even when we don’t submit to Him. To say that we aren’t is to say that the moment you sin (so much as a sinful thought or curse word in traffic) the Holy Ghost departs from you. You see, we are one with Him through the indwelling of Holy Spirit. As long as the Holy Spirit is present, we are one with Him…even in those moments when we aren’t submitted. Our remaining one with Him isn’t predicated upon behavior, performance, or works. It’s predicated entirely upon His grace. Because if He left it up to you or me… we’d no doubt loose it.

I Corinthians 15:31 "I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily."

Romans 8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

Yes, we do these things with the help of the Spirit, but it must be our decision, in the first place, to submit ourselves to His Spirit.

I have to decide, everyday, that I will give my time to God before anything else. I used to pray in the afternoons. That used to work for me when my children were growing up. Now, I find that I have to commit my time in the mornings. But, it is my decision, and it is like a marriage. If I stop communicating, I cannot keep the relationship together. It has to be my choice. It will always be God's.

If you look closely at what you wrote, you’ll notice that you based your entire walk of faith on what you do. Notice how many times you said, “I”, “me”, “my”. I have a different perspective. I believe that the Lord Himself has laid it upon your heart through the power of the Spirit to give your time to God for prayer. You didn’t just come up with that on your own. It was a leading and prompting of the Spirit. And because you have a new nature, that nature (the nature of God in you) actually “desires” to following God’s leading and prompting. It’s not that you “submit”. That’s like saying you really don’t want to do it, but you “submit”. Your “submission” is grounded in the fact that you have a new nature that breathes obedience, rejoices in obedience, and when you sin or fall short, that new nature is convicted (unlike the unregenerate sinner who wouldn’t care). I’ve been reading the works of Hudson Taylor. He has a lot of insight in this area. You see, Hudson Taylor believed that he was so “one” with Christ Jesus that his very own thoughts were the fruit of the divine mind of Christ, i.e., Taylor literally appropriated the truth of having the mind of Christ Jesus. Thus, according to Hudson Taylor’s perspective it wasn’t Hudson Taylor deciding and choosing… it was Christ in Him. He saw it this way because Mr. Taylor knew he deserved no “pat on the back” for obedience, his obedience wasn’t his choice…but the very fruit and work of Christ in Him. In Hudson Taylor’s mind…Hudson Taylor was no longer alive. He was crucified with Christ. Now it was Christ living in and through Him, totally possessing His very being. It’s a beautiful concept that goes beyond the performance based paradigm of looking at what we are experiencing. Rather, it focuses in on our being changed. It isn’t about behavior or performance… it’s all about our very nature being changed as we partake in the divine nature of Christ Jesus, who lives in us. We are truly NEW CREATURES and literally extensions of Jesus Christ Himself (the body of Christ).

Although, I do see Him working in our lives when our flesh seems at odds with Him. From experience, I've seen Him deliver from sin, if in a person's heart, what they are engaged in is something they don't really want to be doing, but feel trapped and can't find a way out. That is when He steps in, but it is because He knows the heart.

My personal conviction is that this proposes that God is on “standby” waiting on us to sanctify ourselves from sin and the flesh; God only stepping in when we are “trapped and can’t find a way out.” I disagree personally; I believe that from start to finish it is the work of God. God draws whom He has chosen with a relentless grace into Christ. It is by God’s grace that we are kept in Christ. And our sanctification is entirely the work of the Holy Spirit as we renew our minds through the Word.

So, again, it places the onus on the individual.

Exactly. With the onus on the individual salvation is entirely upon the individual’s behavior. That means that regardless of what Christ has done, the individual is their own savior. Also, onus doesn’t account for nature, it focuses on works.

God will always do His part.

I believe that God does it all. He who began the good work in us will be faithful to complete it.

I think mfblume spoke about that on another thread concerning forgiveness. If we are not blatantly stumbling into sin with the thought that we can repent later, but are truly sorry for it, He will forgive.

This implies that if we purposefully sin God will not forgive. Who hasn’t “purposefully” sinned? It could also be looked at this way… all sins are actions based on ignorance. Why? When Christ was crucified He prayed, “Father forgiven them. For they know not what they do.” Certainly they knew they were crucifying Christ Jesus, an innocent man, essentially committing murder. What didn’t they know? First, they didn’t know who He truly was. Second, they didn’t know the full effects of their actions. When we “sin” it’s often the result of loosing sight of who Christ truly is in our lives. Also, when we choose to sin we rarely anticipate the full ramifications of our actions. No one knows the depth of pain and sorrow that their sin will bring. Thus it can be said that it is committed in ignorance, not with regards to the act itself, but with regards to the very nature and power of sin.

I knew a strong holiness preacher who firmly believed in “living for Christ” as opposed to “living in Christ”. He preached that we must be “perfect”, “sinless”, “holy” if we want to go to Heaven. While at Bob Evan’s after a Morning Prayer meeting, this preacher told us men a rather racist joke. I looked at my plate and chose not to laugh. He inquired as to if I was offended. I explained that I believed it was a sin. He laughed and said, “Oh, it was a funny sin! A bad joke is just a little sin anyway.” I was floored. It was one of those initial moments I began to see issues in the holiness mindset. You see… that sinful joke was SIN. Period. That one sinful joke is treason against the Creator. God’s HOLINESS is so great that one sinful joke warrants ETERNAL damnation. Because this preacher believed in works and the need to perform properly (from submission to obedience) he also justified his sins to meet the grace in his own eyes. All of us do that if we’re honest. We all have “sins” that are in our lives as I type this. If we say we don’t, we’re calling God a liar and we have downgraded our understanding of how HOLY God truly is. God is sooooo Holy… a single lustful thought is adultery. When we truly comprehend the Holiness of God and the seriousness of sin… we realize that salvation is only possible by grace through faith, not by any works on our part. For if our salvation depends on works at all on our part… we’ve all horribly failed already. At our very best the only thing we deserve is eternity in Hell.

Our views might be best explained in the following analogies…

Your view has God pulling up with a beautiful new car and inviting us to take the wheel. We sit in the driver’s seat as He sits in the passenger seat. God then tells us what turns to take to get to our destination…but ultimately the choice to follow those directions are ours. If we veer too far off course, God gets out and begins walking away. If we choose to follow His directions we get to our destination safely.

In my view God pulls up in a beautiful new car and invites us to get into the passenger seat. God Himself keeps the wheel firmly in hand and begins driving to the destination. All we have to do is remain seated, doing nothing, trusting that He will get us to our destination. As we ride with Him, He changes us in preparation for the destination. Those who choose to get out, even if to find another car (works based religion) they can drive to Heaven, were never truly His to begin with. Why? Because they want the wheel (control) - even if they want to get to Heaven.

You see… absolute surrender is absolute surrender...even surrendering the right to choose. I can do nothing now. I’m dead, crucified with Christ. When I was a legalist I had the wheel and tried to follow God’s directions as best I could…but I seemed to always find myself off course at some point. I’m so glad God didn’t get out of my car. Instead, I gave into grace and gave Him the wheel and now I sit in the passenger seat doing nothing, allowing our conversation to change me. The desire to have the wheel is an unsurrendered part of self. The holiness believer (legalist) gives God everything but total control. That’s why Paul said that those seeking to be justified by the Law are fallen from grace (Galatians).

Salvation is entirely the work of God. Our salvation his found in three tenses – past, present, and future. We were justified by faith in the finished work of God in Christ Jesus. We are sanctified by the on going work of the Spirit. We will be glorified by the very power of God. We don’t earn it. We do nothing. We simply allow Christ to live His life out through us, in accordance to the righteous divine nature imparted to us by faith.

Birth determines nature and it doesn’t change. I was born a human being. And I am human even if I don’t act like it sometimes. I can’t be a dog. When I was born again the very nature of Jesus Christ was imparted to me, and His righteousness imputed. I was “born again” a saint of God. And that I will always be…even if at times I don’t behave like it.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by pelathais

As to the blood sacrifice element here, that does seem apparent to me but it is not explicit. However, one must ask, "Did God make the 'new' garments for Adam and Eve because their own garments failed to measure up to His own modesty standards, or did He do so that He might set the precedent for blood sacrifice?"

Or did he do so because fig leaves aren't very practical clothing material? They'd soon dry up, get brittle and fall to pieces. He made them clothing that would last.

We can conjecture all day, but the Bible just doesn't say.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

No one missed the greater picture. We simply were comparing the definition of "apron" and "clothed". I could have copied and pasted the same thing Sam posted. That wasn't what we were discussing. Sometimes you can be so arrogant and insulting.

mblume arrogant and insulting?? Wow! He's one of the most balanced posters on the board in my opinion.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I believe we are one with Him even when we don’t submit to Him. To say that we aren’t is to say that the moment you sin (so much as a sinful thought or curse word in traffic) the Holy Ghost departs from you. You see, we are one with Him through the indwelling of Holy Spirit. As long as the Holy Spirit is present, we are one with Him…even in those moments when we aren’t submitted. Our remaining one with Him isn’t predicated upon behavior, performance, or works. It’s predicated entirely upon His grace. Because if He left it up to you or me… we’d no doubt loose it.

If you look closely at what you wrote, you’ll notice that you based your entire walk of faith on what you do. Notice how many times you said, “I”, “me”, “my”. I have a different perspective. I believe that the Lord Himself has laid it upon your heart through the power of the Spirit to give your time to God for prayer. You didn’t just come up with that on your own. It was a leading and prompting of the Spirit. And because you have a new nature, that nature (the nature of God in you) actually “desires” to following God’s leading and prompting. It’s not that you “submit”. That’s like saying you really don’t want to do it, but you “submit”. Your “submission” is grounded in the fact that you have a new nature that breathes obedience, rejoices in obedience, and when you sin or fall short, that new nature is convicted (unlike the unregenerate sinner who wouldn’t care).

My personal conviction is that this proposes that God is on “standby” waiting on us to sanctify ourselves from sin and the flesh; God only stepping in when we are “trapped and can’t find a way out.” I disagree personally; I believe that from start to finish it is the work of God. God draws whom He has chosen with a relentless grace into Christ. It is by God’s grace that we are kept in Christ. And our sanctification is entirely the work of the Holy Spirit as we renew our minds through the Word.

Exactly. With the onus on the individual salvation is entirely upon the individual’s behavior. That means that regardless of what Christ has done, the individual is their own savior. Also, onus doesn’t account for nature, it focuses on works.

I believe that God does it all. He who began the good work in us will be faithful to complete it.

Our views might be best explained in the following analogies…

Your view has God pulling up with a beautiful new car and inviting us to take the wheel. We sit in the driver’s seat as He sits in the passenger seat. God then tells us what turns to take to get to our destination…but ultimately the choice to follow those directions are ours. If we veer too far off course, God gets out and begins walking away. If we choose to follow His directions we get to our destination safely.

In my view God pulls up in a beautiful new car and invites us to get into the passenger seat. God Himself keeps the wheel firmly in hand and begins driving to the destination. All we have to do is remain seated, doing nothing, trusting that He will get us to our destination. As we ride with Him, He changes us in preparation for the destination. Those who choose to get out, even if to find another car (works based religion) they can drive to Heaven, were never truly His to begin with. Why? Because they want the wheel (control) - even if they want to get to Heaven.

You see… absolute surrender is absolute surrender...even surrendering the right to choose. I can do nothing now. I’m dead, crucified with Christ. When I was a legalist I had the wheel and tried to follow God’s directions as best I could…but I seemed to always find myself off course at some point. I’m so glad God didn’t get out of my car. Instead, I gave into grace and gave Him the wheel and now I sit in the passenger seat doing nothing, allowing our conversation to change me. The desire to have the wheel is an unsurrendered part of self. The holiness believer (legalist) gives God everything but total control. That’s why Paul said that those seeking to be justified by the Law are fallen from grace (Galatians).

Salvation is entirely the work of God. Our salvation his found in three tenses – past, present, and future. We were justified by faith in the finished work of God in Christ Jesus. We are sanctified by the on going work of the Spirit. We will be glorified by the very power of God. We don’t earn it. We do nothing. We simply allow Christ to live His life out through us, in accordance to the righteous divine nature imparted to us by faith.

Birth determines nature and it doesn’t change. I was born a human being. And I am human even if I don’t act like it sometimes. I can’t be a dog. When I was born again the very nature of Jesus Christ was imparted to me, and His righteousness imputed. I was “born again” a saint of God. And that I will always be…even if at times I don’t behave like it.

Getting ready to head out of town, but what I am thinking is - None of the things we "do" is a work to obtain salvation. It is simply so that we may maintain and grow. We don't ever sit in a passenger seat "doing nothing". That contradicts every admonition in the Bible. Why else would he give the five-fold ministry?

"(11)And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: (13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: (Ephesians 4:11-13)

There is so much in this passage. I will simply highlight some of the major points that speak to me.

2 Timothy 2

2And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

3Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

4No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

5And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.

6The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.



9Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.


15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Timothy is charge to "war" a good warfare.


"This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;" (I Timothy 1:18)

We are admonished to "hold fast the profession of our faith".

"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)" (Hebrews 10:23)

As in II Timothy 2:13 "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

He is always faithful and just, that doesn't mean we sit in a passenger's seat "doing nothing". This isn't a OSAS truth.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

mblume arrogant and insulting?? Wow! He's one of the most balanced posters on the board in my opinion.

He usually is. I was offended at his remark today.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Getting ready to head out of town, but what I am thinking is - None of the things we "do" is a work to obtain salvation. It is simply so that we may maintain and grow. We don't ever sit in a passenger seat "doing nothing". That contradicts every admonition in the Bible. Why else would he give the five-fold ministry?

"(11)And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: (13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: (Ephesians 4:11-13)

There is so much in this passage. I will simply highlight some of the major points that speak to me.

2 Timothy 2

2And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

3Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

4No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

5And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.

6The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.



9Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.


15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Timothy is charge to "war" a good warfare.


"This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;" (I Timothy 1:18)

We are admonished to "hold fast the profession of our faith".

"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)" (Hebrews 10:23)

As in II Timothy 2:13 "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

He is always faithful and just, that doesn't mean we sit in a passenger's seat "doing nothing". This isn't a OSAS truth.

I've discovered that resting in Christ and doing nothing (allowing God to do in me) is the hardest thing to do. It's human nature to try to have some control.

I like Hudson Taylor's perspective....

"The branch of the vine does not worry, and toil, and rush here to seek for sunshine, and there to find rain. No; it rests in union and communion with the vine; and at the right time, and in the right way, is the right fruit found on it. Let us so abide in the Lord Jesus." ~ Hudson Taylor

Without Him, we can do nothing. Even the very prompting of our thoughts and desires and every action should be a work of the Holy Ghost in us. For example, let's say a man wants to repent of abusing alcohol. He hears the Gospel and wants to be set free. Is HE wanting to be free? No...in the flesh he wants the alcohol. It's the spirit that wants free. Why? Because the Holy Ghost is prompting to seek freedom. So the man chooses to stop drinking. Did he "choose" to stop drinking? No. The Holy Ghost chose to deliver Him and brought such conviction on his very soul (and often fire of circumstance) that he was overcome by the Holy Ghost's desire to free him and surrendered. God knows how much it takes to make the human soul cry uncle. No human will is beyond God's ability to break.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I've discovered that resting in Christ and doing nothing (allowing God to do in me) is the hardest thing to do. It's human nature to try to have some control.

I like Hudson Taylor's perspective....

"The branch of the vine does not worry, and toil, and rush here to seek for sunshine, and there to find rain. No; it rests in union and communion with the vine; and at the right time, and in the right way, is the right fruit found on it. Let us so abide in the Lord Jesus." ~ Hudson Taylor

Without Him, we can do nothing. Even the very prompting of our thoughts and desires and every action should be a work of the Holy Ghost in us. For example, let's say a man wants to repent of abusing alcohol. He hears the Gospel and wants to be set free. Is HE wanting to be free? No...in the flesh he wants the alcohol. It's the spirit that wants free. Why? Because the Holy Ghost is prompting to seek freedom. So the man chooses to stop drinking. Did he "choose" to stop drinking? No. The Holy Ghost chose to deliver Him and brought such conviction on his very soul (and often fire of circumstance) that he was overcome by the Holy Ghost's desire to free him and surrendered. God knows how much it takes to make the human soul cry uncle. No human will is beyond God's ability to break.

Aquila why didn't you address the scriptures PO posted? A man's word surely doesn't carry more weight than the scriptures themselves. I know you better than that I think?