Are Infants Really Born Sinless?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

Praxeas,

You have much reference to children within the scriptures above. What age must a person be to be classified a child, ages 4-11? There’s a law in effect where children under the age of 7 can’t be left alone at home, due to their mental capability of not being able to discern bad from good.

You stated in your above quotes:

1) "And the text indicates they were without sin...that it would take an adult to CAUSE them to sin" and "If you read the context you'd see how Jesus was speaking NOT of hsi disciples but of children"


2) "It refers to children being innocent. It refers to children being the ideal state WE must be like"


Lets review Luke 18:16, "But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these."

What information can we obtain from Luke 18:16?

We read that Jesus called these children unto him. These children were able to walk and were mentally capable of understanding and responding to Jesus when He called them. Jesus then said, "the kingdom of God belongs to such as these."

Jesus was explaining that his disciples "should be such as these", with the humility and modesty of children. If you disagree, I'll begin a new thread on those scriptures alone and we can read "what saith the forum."

I agree with you, Jesus was speaking about children. But while he was speaking about the children in his presence, he was indirectly suggesting that we, followers of God, that we must become like "such as these." You quoted the scripture above, "Mat 18:3 and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Here Jesus spoke to adults when telling them they must become like children.


In response to your quotes:

1) The text doesn't indicate these children were sinless! Again, you quoted above, "Mat 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."

Notice Jesus said if you cause one of these little ones "who believe in me to sin." Once again, read the entire context as you suggested. He was indirectly referring to His followers. Remember, Jesus called on the child, the child didn't call on Jesus. The scripture neither gives any reference that the child was a believer. For all we know these children were walking by when Jesus called on them.

How much can we really become as children when Paul states, 1 Corinthians 13:11, When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.



2) Really, how innocent are children? Lets turn to 2 Kings 2:23

"And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head."

Surely these children knew good from evil? Their insults toward the prophet came at a deep cost. Many of these kids where killed when God's Judgment fell.

I personally know a pastor whose daughters received the Holy Ghost around 5 to 6 years of age and others were 4 years old. In your opinion, can a child sin at ages 4-5-6? If no, do they need to obey Acts 2:38? How do these girls acknowledge Jesus as their savior without repenting of their sins?


According to Peter in Acts 2:38, Repent, and be baptized every one of you. Then in verse 39 Peter states, For the promise is unto you, and to your children, .....even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

What promise did Peter speak about? Holy Ghost infilling of course. Why would their children need to repent if they're innocent? Surely little children can't be sinners, they're innocent, correct?


Here's a question for you. If children at age 4-6 are sinning, and they die without Holy Ghost infilling and Jesus name baptism, in your opinion, would these sinning children be lost for eternity? Understanding of course that these children knew good from evil.

Because Children are the future. A better meaning might be offspring. In other words the promise was not just to those there that day, but to the next generation and beyond

Children at age 4-6 sinning? Im not sure they do. It all goes back to knowing good and evil. There is no specific age for when that happens. Adam was older than Eve but they both gained that knowledge at the same time

When or what age a child is when that happens only God knows.

[Jacob's Ladder]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Because Children are the future. A better meaning might be offspring. In other words the promise was not just to those there that day, but to the next generation and beyond

Acts2:39, The promise is for you and your children (present tense)and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” (future tense)

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Children at age 4-6 sinning? Im not sure they do. It all goes back to knowing good and evil. There is no specific age for when that happens. Adam was older than Eve but they both gained that knowledge at the same time. When or what age a child is when that happens only God knows.

Well, take this into consideration. Have you ever seen a mother trying to discipline her 4-8 year old child at grocery store, church, or some type of function? The child then purposely ignores his/her mother, and then you see their father come around the corner and the child practically pees their pants? The father then gives them an instruction and they obey? I've seen that happen multiple upon multiple times.

Do children know good from wrong then, I would assume yes. There's something about their mother's instruction they purposely choose to ignore. They know they should listen, but they don't. Consider God's commandment of honoring your father and mother. Aren't children in direct violation of God's commandment? That is a sin.

I know what you're thinking, the child doesn't know he/she is disobeying God's commandment. I mean, I can understand your point. The child doesn't know they're disobeying God's commandment (committing sin), right? Well, here 's another situation. There's a 21 year old female that has never heard of God, and this female is involved in pornography.

Is this female guilty only of ignorance? Is she rendered sinless because of her lack of knowledge in an existent God and His commandments?

If the 4-8 year old child is sinless after disobeying their parents due to a lack of knowledge of God's word, the female pornography star is also rendered sinless. However, if the female pornography star is guilty of sin after she fornicates, even though she never heard of any God, the child is guilty of sin too.

God is no respecter of persons.

Also take into consideration, Lydia and her household were baptized (Acts 16), the household of Stephanas was baptized (1Corinthians 1), and the Jailer and his household were baptized (Acts 16). I can only assume and say, one of these 3 families had to have a little child. To obey the gospel, you must acknowledge that you're a sinner.

I guess a child is born a sinner because of their condition, being estranged from God. If we were born sinless, God would never suggest of putting his law in our hearts. But our sinful actions are the nature (Ephesians 2:3) of the heart we were born with.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

Acts2:39, The promise is for you and your children (present tense)and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” (future tense)

The word "children" means offspring. You are someone's child too but I doubt you are a 4 year old arguing you are a sinner going to hell, am I correct?

All "children" indicates here is decedents or offspring not age

Well, take this into consideration. Have you ever seen a mother trying to discipline her 4-8 year old child at grocery store, church, or some type of function? The child then purposely ignores his/her mother, and then you see their father come around the corner and the child practically pees their pants? The father then gives them an instruction and they obey? I've seen that happen multiple upon multiple times.

Children need to be taught. That is the point in what the bible says. They know not good or evil yet. They need to be taught right from wrong

Do children know good from wrong then, I would assume yes. There's something about their mother's instruction they purposely choose to ignore. They know they should listen, but they don't. Consider God's commandment of honoring your father and mother. Aren't children in direct violation of God's commandment? That is a sin.

No see that is where good parenting skills come on. Train up a child in the way he should go we are told. Children are clueless when they are young.

I know what you're thinking, the child doesn't know he/she is disobeying God's commandment. I mean, I can understand your point. The child doesn't know they're disobeying God's commandment (committing sin), right? Well, here 's another situation. There's a 21 year old female that has never heard of God, and this female is involved in pornography.

I can only go by what God says

Gen 3:22 And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever,

Deu 1:39 And as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there. And to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.

Is this female guilty only of ignorance? Is she rendered sinless because of her lack of knowledge in an existent God and His commandments?

A 21 year old with the mental ability of a child? Or an adult?

If the 4-8 year old child is sinless after disobeying their parents due to a lack of knowledge of God's word, the female pornography star is also rendered sinless. However, if the female pornography star is guilty of sin after she fornicates, even though she never heard of any God, the child is guilty of sin too.

We don't know at what age a child has knowledge of good or evil, the point remains that a child is not instantly born a sinner

Also take into consideration, Lydia and her household were baptized (Acts 16), the household of Stephanas was baptized (1Corinthians 1), and the Jailer and his household were baptized (Acts 16). I can only assume and say, one of these 3 families had to have a little child. To obey the gospel, you must acknowledge that you're a sinner.

Argument from silence. We don't know if any of those households had children let alone the ages. She could have had teen aged boys for all we know

I

guess a child is born a sinner because of their condition, being estranged from God. If we were born sinless, God would never suggest of putting his law in our hearts. But our sinful actions are the nature (Ephesians 2:3) of the heart we were born with.

Children can't be born sinners, see previous verses.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The word "children" means offspring. You are someone's child too but I doubt you are a 4 year old arguing you are a sinner going to hell, am I correct?

All "children" indicates here is decedents or offspring not age

Exactly. It is speaking about generations to follow, not the age of people when they are children and not youth or adults. Otherwise, the youth cannot be saved. lol

[Jacob's Ladder]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The word "children" means offspring. You are someone's child too but I doubt you are a 4 year old arguing you are a sinner going to hell, am I correct?

All "children" indicates here is decedents or offspring not age


Children need to be taught. That is the point in what the bible says. They know not good or evil yet. They need to be taught right from wrong


No see that is where good parenting skills come on. Train up a child in the way he should go we are told. Children are clueless when they are young.


I can only go by what God says

Gen 3:22 And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever,

Deu 1:39 And as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there. And to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.


A 21 year old with the mental ability of a child? Or an adult?


We don't know at what age a child has knowledge of good or evil, the point remains that a child is not instantly born a sinner


Argument from silence. We don't know if any of those households had children let alone the ages. She could have had teen aged boys for all we know

I
Children can't be born sinners, see previous verses.

Then here's what I've learned about infants/children within our dialog:

1) All infants are heaven bound

2) The crucifixion of Jesus is worthless to them during the stage of childhood

3) The Blood of Jesus is comparable to dirt to children during the stage of childhood

4) Children are exempt for John 3:5 and don't need to be born of water and spirit as Jesus commanded to enter heaven,

“Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.


and finally

5) The Apostle Paul was an idiot when writing Romans 8:9,

"And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ."

I've learned even though babies have never received the Holy Ghost infilling, they still belong to God, and Apostle Paul was very misleading.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

Acts2:39, The promise is for you and your children (present tense)and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” (future tense)




Well, take this into consideration. Have you ever seen a mother trying to discipline her 4-8 year old child at grocery store, church, or some type of function? The child then purposely ignores his/her mother, and then you see their father come around the corner and the child practically pees their pants? The father then gives them an instruction and they obey? I've seen that happen multiple upon multiple times.

Do children know good from wrong then, I would assume yes. There's something about their mother's instruction they purposely choose to ignore. They know they should listen, but they don't. Consider God's commandment of honoring your father and mother. Aren't children in direct violation of God's commandment? That is a sin.

I know what you're thinking, the child doesn't know he/she is disobeying God's commandment. I mean, I can understand your point. The child doesn't know they're disobeying God's commandment (committing sin), right? Well, here 's another situation. There's a 21 year old female that has never heard of God, and this female is involved in pornography.

Is this female guilty only of ignorance? Is she rendered sinless because of her lack of knowledge in an existent God and His commandments?

If the 4-8 year old child is sinless after disobeying their parents due to a lack of knowledge of God's word, the female pornography star is also rendered sinless. However, if the female pornography star is guilty of sin after she fornicates, even though she never heard of any God, the child is guilty of sin too.

God is no respecter of persons.

Also take into consideration, Lydia and her household were baptized (Acts 16), the household of Stephanas was baptized (1Corinthians 1), and the Jailer and his household were baptized (Acts 16). I can only assume and say, one of these 3 families had to have a little child. To obey the gospel, you must acknowledge that you're a sinner.

I guess a child is born a sinner because of their condition, being estranged from God. If we were born sinless, God would never suggest of putting his law in our hearts. But our sinful actions are the nature (Ephesians 2:3) of the heart we were born with.

tell us jacob in your own words please, nothing drawn out, why you think God sends babies to hell. are they little devils? do you hate kids? are you jealous why do you believe God sends them to hell. Just a personal statement

[Jacob's Ladder]

Originally Posted by acerrak

surely your not that dumb, i explained the verses to you.
i wash my hands of you.

Originally Posted by acerrak

tell us jacob in your own words please, nothing drawn out, why you think God sends babies to hell. are they little devils? do you hate kids? are you jealous why do you believe God sends them to hell. Just a personal statement

You want a personal statement?

I think you might have commitment issues.

In one post you condemn me to hell and in the post above you wash your hands of me. Now here you are again asking me questions.

[LUKE2447]

Aquila... Did Abraham have the divine nature imparted to him?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Aquila... Did Abraham has a the divine nature imparted to him?

Are you denying that you have partaken in the divine nature?

2 Peter 1:3-5
English Standard Version (ESV)
3His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge,

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Are you denying that you have partaken in the divine nature?

2 Peter 1:3-5
English Standard Version (ESV)
3His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge,

answer the question. did Abraham have a divine nature imparted to him?