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Old 06-04-2011, 11:34 AM
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Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?

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Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
He could pick a scripture for either answer. Anyone could. Here, let me try.

1. Righteous. "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezekiel 18:20.

2. Unrighteous. "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5. "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." Psalm 58:3. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23.

Which do you prefer?
That doesn't answer any questions. Is an infant righteous or unrighteous being?
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Old 06-04-2011, 11:36 AM
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Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?

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Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder View Post
That doesn't answer any questions. Is an infant righteous or unrighteous being?
Huh? I answered it both ways, with scripture. Oh, but if you want me to pick one, I'll go with righteous. Final answer.
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Old 06-04-2011, 12:40 PM
Dedicated Mind Dedicated Mind is offline
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Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?

I'm not saying that children are lost, but I would like to know what this verse means. I cor 7 :24, For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy?
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Old 06-04-2011, 12:53 PM
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Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?

For several years about 3 or 4 of us guys would meet for breakfast and prayer on Friday mornings before going into work at General Electric. One was a Lutheran who believed that babies who were aborted went to hell because they were not baptized. It was a diverse group and we respected one another's opinions and did not argue over doctrinal differences.

I remember reading somewhere that a strict Calvinist said that children who were not among "the elect" were nothing more than "little vipers" in the sight of God. I cannot remember the person' s name or where I read this.
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Old 06-04-2011, 01:26 PM
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Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?

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Originally Posted by Sam View Post
For several years about 3 or 4 of us guys would meet for breakfast and prayer on Friday mornings before going into work at General Electric. One was a Lutheran who believed that babies who were aborted went to hell because they were not baptized. It was a diverse group and we respected one another's opinions and did not argue over doctrinal differences.

I remember reading somewhere that a strict Calvinist said that children who were not among "the elect" were nothing more than "little vipers" in the sight of God. I cannot remember the person' s name or where I read this.
personally i would have found some other company. Cause there are some doctrinal views like that i wont budge on. and i dont even consider it a doctrinal view at all. I consider it common sense.

if the Lord is a respector of persons which the bible declares Him as.
How come we the living Got a chance at eternal Life but those babies who have barely seen the Light of day and not even committed a willful act of sin, not have that chance.

Its Like the Lord said, These people wouldnt be guilty of sin, unless He came and preached to them.

This is Jesus talking to the Jews. we know they were sinners, Yet jesus declares they would not be guilty of sin if he hadnt come.

Now how can a baby be guilty of sin, when he doesnt know what Sin is? Or even the fact ever committing any sin? why would the Lord who takes pleasure in His creation, who gave the breathe of Life to it to begin with, condem it because it died as a baby ?
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Old 06-04-2011, 03:13 PM
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Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?

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Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind View Post
I'm not saying that children are lost, but I would like to know what this verse means. I cor 7 :24, For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy?
bump

Can someone who is defending the innocence of children please address this verse.
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Old 06-04-2011, 04:08 PM
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Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?

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Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind View Post
bump

Can someone who is defending the innocence of children please address this verse.
Robertson
1Co 7:14
Is sanctified in the wife (hēgiastai en tēi gunaiki). Perfect passive indicative of hagiazō, to set apart, to hallow, to sanctify. Paul does not, of course, mean that the unbelieving husband is saved by the faith of the believing wife, though Hodge actually so interprets him. Clearly he only means that the marriage relation is sanctified so that there is no need of a divorce. If either husband or wife is a believer and the other agrees to remain, the marriage is holy and need not be set aside. This is so simple that one wonders at the ability of men to get confused over Paul’s language.
Else were your children unclean (epei ara ta tekna akatharta). The common ellipse of the condition with epei: “since, accordingly, if it is otherwise, your children are illegitimate (akatharta).” If the relations of the parents be holy, the child’s birth must be holy also (not illegitimate). “He is not assuming that the child of a Christian parent would be baptized; that would spoil rather than help his argument, for it would imply that the child was not hagios till it was baptized. The verse throws no light on the question of infant baptism” (Robertson and Plummer).

The topic is sanctification of marriage
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Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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Old 06-04-2011, 04:55 PM
Dedicated Mind Dedicated Mind is offline
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Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?

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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Robertson
1Co 7:14
Is sanctified in the wife (hēgiastai en tēi gunaiki). Perfect passive indicative of hagiazō, to set apart, to hallow, to sanctify. Paul does not, of course, mean that the unbelieving husband is saved by the faith of the believing wife, though Hodge actually so interprets him. Clearly he only means that the marriage relation is sanctified so that there is no need of a divorce. If either husband or wife is a believer and the other agrees to remain, the marriage is holy and need not be set aside. This is so simple that one wonders at the ability of men to get confused over Paul’s language.
Else were your children unclean (epei ara ta tekna akatharta). The common ellipse of the condition with epei: “since, accordingly, if it is otherwise, your children are illegitimate (akatharta).” If the relations of the parents be holy, the child’s birth must be holy also (not illegitimate). “He is not assuming that the child of a Christian parent would be baptized; that would spoil rather than help his argument, for it would imply that the child was not hagios till it was baptized. The verse throws no light on the question of infant baptism” (Robertson and Plummer).

The topic is sanctification of marriage
does this mean that the marriage of unbelievers is illegitimate and that the children of unbelievers are bastards? how does this affect their salvation status?
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  #9  
Old 06-04-2011, 06:26 PM
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Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind View Post
does this mean that the marriage of unbelievers is illegitimate and that the children of unbelievers are bastards? how does this affect their salvation status?
No, it means that being a believer married to an unbeliever does not null the marriage
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #10  
Old 06-04-2011, 08:35 PM
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Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?

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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
The tense is aorist and gives a historic picture. All have sinned. However we know that Jesus did NOT sin. Right?

And as has been said babies, being part of the human race, will eventually commit sin

But the question was already asked, what sins do babies commit? Lying? Adultery? Rob banks?

Praxeas,

No, Jesus never sinned, 1 Peter 2:22, "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth."

You asked what sins do infants commit? I've read all your post, so please take mine carefully into consideration.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned


Notice, the scripture reads death entered the world through sin. Due to sin, death came to all men because of sin.

When we're born, we begin our journey to what ultimately will lead to death. While some die young and others at an elderly age, the death of a human being is due to the effect of sin.

Remember, "sin entered the world through one man" (through Adam's disobedience sin entered the world), and death through sin (because of sin, death entered the world), "and in this way death came to all men" (we inherited Adam's sin because we all will die).

After Adam's transgression, he died spiritually, and also began dying physically. Why do infants or adults die? Because we're born with sin that we inherited from Adam. How do we know that? Because sin brings death. A sinless body wouldn't die. Death is the effect of sin indwelling within our carnal bodies.

In the likeness of Adam's fallen nature, we inherited his sin because we're born spiritually dead (estranged from God) and we begin physically dying at birth.


It is impossible to be born sinless. We just can't convert from sinless at birth to becoming a sinner.

In regards to Psalm 51:5, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

David, you, I, and the entire humanity have the Adamic sin nature at birth. Sin isn't something we learn to commit. Remember, Ephesians 2:3 talks about how we were by nature children of wrath? Before our conversion, by nature we were sinners.


Jesus said in Matt 15:18, But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man unclean.

We're sinners because we have the nature of sin (Adam's sin) already within us all. Our uncleanness/sin comes from within the heart, it's within us at birth, it isn't something that we learn later in life.

Sin is already rooted in our heart at birth. Remember, we were the children of wrath by nature? Nature comes automatically, it isn't learned.

Jeremiah 17:9 states,
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked......"

Yes, at birth we have a "deceitful, wicked sin infested heart." It's for that reason that God desires to give us a new heart, Ezekiel 36:26, "I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh....."

Job 25:4 reads, "..... How can one born of woman be pure?"

Did Jesus inherit the Adamic sinful nature? No.

Roman 8:3
For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,


Notice, Jesus came in the likeness of "sinful flesh." Jesus didn't receive the Adamic sinful nature, which comes naturally in all of humanity (Ephesians 2:3). Adam's sin is transfered through human father-ship. That's why Jesus was sinless, He received his physical nature from Mary, not man.

Death entered through sin. The fact the infants die is evidence that sin is present in their life.


So no, these babies didn't commit adultery or rob banks as you suggested, they inherited the Adamic sin.

Last edited by Jacob's Ladder; 06-04-2011 at 08:42 PM.
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