didachē

[Sister Alvear]

not saying all that is true or not but on the net we can find about anything...however the Bible is the only book that we will be judged by....for in it are words of life eternal...

My friend...I personally would never be unkind to someone that sees the Bible different than I do....I am only human....

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by acerrak

people can always look at early church history to get a idea how the early church believed.

Though we dont see it in scriptures, doesnt mean they didnt practice it. Expecially when many people shared the same point throughout a certain time span.

Here are the problems with that'

1) we don't know the dates for sure most of the time

2) often documents were forged by someone else

3) often the contain interpolations, meaning someone changed something, deleted something or added something

4) Even if genuine the don't tell us how the entire church believed. For example, early on many Christians were gnostic and there are many documents considered gnostic. That the were gnostic does not mean the entire church was nor that such a view should be up for consideration

My earlier point was, if it's not in scriptures and people practiced it, it's a tradition of man not the word of God

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by acerrak

lol sis. well now you can understand why oneness reject this historical document. Because Oneness disagree with the mode or verbal command of baptism.


But like i stated we have many finds in this age. like the dead sea scrolls, that are authentic, inspired, but do we need to constantly add to the bible? Of course not We have enough. However viewing History in what we call outside sources which is not necessarily a outside source can give us insights to how the early church acted, and what they did.

like baptising in the name of the father Son and Holy Ghost. In essence obeying the great commission.

again in earlier times the bible was much bigger and with more stuff in it, until the prodestant reformation. then books was being thrown out.

People like Martin luther challanged books such of James being non inspired and the same with revelations. Up to about 18 books total in the bible.So the bible we have today evolved some as well

Usually Oneness reject ALL historical documents simply because they are not scripture

[Praxeas]

BTW Im one of the people that believes we haven't gotten a complete picture of Ecclesiastical history. For example, where are the writings of Sabellius or Praxeas?

Why when considering "history" is only the Trinitarian view presented? And why is that view including pre-Trinitarian logos Christology as well as the polytheistic works of Justin Martyr?

[houston]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

BTW Im one of the people that believes we haven't gotten a complete picture of Ecclesiastical history. For example, where are the writings of Sabellius or Praxeas?

Why when considering "history" is only the Trinitarian view presented? And why is that view including pre-Trinitarian logos Christology as well as the polytheistic works of Justin Martyr?

You have writings that are not on AFF? :P

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Here are the problems with that'

1) we don't know the dates for sure most of the time

2) often documents were forged by someone else

3) often the contain interpolations, meaning someone changed something, deleted something or added something

4) Even if genuine the don't tell us how the entire church believed. For example, early on many Christians were gnostic and there are many documents considered gnostic. That the were gnostic does not mean the entire church was nor that such a view should be up for consideration

My earlier point was, if it's not in scriptures and people practiced it, it's a tradition of man not the word of God

one can read the writings themselves and make the call weather they think its inspired or not.

I dont find any problems with the didache contridicting the bible personally. I also just skimmed over the epistle of barnabas and really still dont see any contridiction. even expanded on some other views i have had.


though i agree with things getting flaky after the church state mix under constantine. but usually before that what tidbits we have most have went under major microscopes to disproove and aprove

and most dates are a guess to when specifically written, however they keep the date with in the life time of the person written

For instance justin marytrs work

however i dont believe we have to keep adding to the bible everytime we discover something.

[Praxeas]

Here are some tidbits on the Didache (MS stands for manuscript)

The only known MS (written in 1056) was discovered by P. *Bryennios at the ‘Jerusalem Monastery of the Holy Sepulchre’ at *Constantinople in 1873 and published by him in 1883.

Cross, F. L., & Livingstone, E. A. (2005). The Oxford dictionary of the Christian Church (3rd ed. rev.) (482). Oxford; New York: Oxford University Press.




IV. The Didache

The Didache is a problematical work, consisting of teaching (which appears in other works) on the ways of life and of death, a brief church order, dealing with baptism, fasting, prayer, eucharist, ministers and prophets, and closing with an apocalypse. It has many peculiar features, according exactly neither with church order in the NT nor with what we know of the 2nd-century church. It has been argued that it is a genuine early work (e.g. J. P. Audet, La Didachi, 1958, dates it AD 60), that it is a late-2nd-century reconstruction, or that it represents a church out of the main stream. It seems to be Syrian.


Wood, D. R. W., & Marshall, I. H. (1996). New Bible dictionary (3rd ed.) (879). Leicester, England; Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press.



V. THE ACT OF BAPTISM

One of the earliest accounts of how the pastor confers baptism is found in the first century Didache. It is evident from this source that a number of issues were being debated very early that continued to be debated for many centuries: whether by immersion or sprinkling, whether by running or still water, whether fasting is presupposed:

The procedure for baptizing is as follows. After rehearsing all the preliminaries, immerse in running water “In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” If no running water is available, immerse in ordinary water. This should be cold if possible; otherwise warm. If neither is practicable, then sprinkle water three times on the head “In the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.” Both baptizer and baptized ought to fast before the baptism, as well as any others who can do so; but the candidate himself should be told to keep a fast for a day or two beforehand. (Didache, Part 2, sec. 7, ECW, pp. 230–231)


Oden, T. C. (1989). Ministry Through Word and Sacrament (122). New York: Crossroad.

[Praxeas]

And here is a quote from Hippolytus...let's see if this sounds biblical or if Traditions of men were already creeping into some churches

And when they are chosen who are set apart to receive baptism let their life be examined, whether they lived piously while catechumens, whether “they honoured the widows” (1 Tim. 5:3), whether they visited the sick, whether they have fulfilled every good work.
If those who bring them bear witness to them that they have done thus, [then] let them hear the gospel.… [And] let those who are to be baptised be instructed to wash and cleanse themselves on the fifth day of the week.… Those who are to receive baptism shall fast on the Friday and on the Saturday. And on the Saturday the bishop shall assemble those who are to be baptised in one place, and shall bid them [all] to pray and bow the knee … And they shall spend all the night in vigil, reading the scriptures [to them] and instructing them.… And at the hour when the cock crows they shall first [of all] pray over the water.
[When they come to the water, let the water be pure and flowing.]
And they shall put off their clothes.
And they shall baptise the little children first. And if they can answer for themselves, let them answer. But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family.… And when the presbyter takes hold of each one of those who are to be baptised, let him bid him renounce saying:
I renounce thee, Satan, and all thy service and all thy works.
And when he has said this let him anoint him with the Oil of Exorcism saying:
Let all evil spirits depart far from thee.
And also turning him to the East, let him say:
[I consent to Thee, O Father and Son and Holy Ghost, before whom all creation trembleth and is moved. Grant me to do all Thy wills without blame.]
Then after these things let him give him over to [the presbyter] who stands at the water [to baptise];
[And a presbyter takes his right hand and he turns his face to the East. Before he descends into the water, while he still turns his face to the East, standing above the water he says after receiving the Oil of Exorcism, thus: I believe and bow me unto Thee and all Thy service, O Father, Son and Holy Ghost. And so he descends into the water.]
And let them stand in the water naked. And let [a] deacon likewise go down with him into the water.
And let him say to him and instruct him: Dost thou believe in one God the Father Almighty, and His only-begotten Son Jesus Christ our Lord and our Saviour, and His Holy Spirit, Giver of life to all creatures, the Trinity of one Substance, one Godhead, one Lordship, one Kingdom, one Faith, one Baptism in the Holy Catholic Apostolic Church for life eternal [Amen]? And he who is baptised shall say [again] thus: verily, I believe.
And [when] he [who is to be baptised] goes down to the water, let him who baptises lay hand on him saying thus:
Dost thou believe in God the Father Almighty? And he who is being baptised shall say: I believe. Let him forthwith baptise him once, having his hand laid upon his head. And after [this] let him say: Dost thou believe in Christ Jesus, the Son of God, Who was born of Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, Who was crucified in the days of Pontius Pilate, And died, [and was buried] And rose the third day living from the dead And ascended into [the] heaven[s], And sat down at the right hand of the Father, And will come to judge the living and the dead? And when he says: I believe, let him [baptise him] the second time. And again let him say: Dost thou believe in [the] Holy Spirit in the Holy Church, And the resurrection of the flesh? And he who is being baptised shall say: I believe. And so let him [baptise him] the third time. And afterwards when he comes up [from the water] he shall be anointed by the presbyter with the Oil of Thanksgiving saying: I anoint thee with holy oil in the Name of Jesus Christ. And [so] each one drying himself [with a towel] they shall [now] put on their clothes, and after this let them be together in the assembly. (Hippolytus, The Apostolic Tradition, pp. 30–38)


Oden, T. C. (1989). Ministry Through Word and Sacrament (122–124). New York: Crossroad.

[Praxeas]

EUCHARIST [ūˊkə rĭst] (Gk. eucharistía “thanksgiving”).* The rite of Holy Communion or the Lord’s Supper. Among the earliest evidence for this name, which does not occur in the New Testament, are references in the Didache (ix.1), Ignatius of Antioch (Philad. iv), and Justin Martyr (Apol. i.66).

Myers, A. C. (1987). The Eerdmans Bible dictionary (356). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Eerdmans.



If the act which epitomizes soul care is Supper with the resurrected Lord, it behooves the pastor to look carefully at the language of the eucharistic event to see how the ancient pastoral writers interpreted its meaning. The eucharistic prayers and rubrics yield the deepest insight. One of the earliest of such prayers is found in the Didache:

At the Eucharist, offer the eucharistic prayer in this way. Begin with the chalice: “We give thanks to thee, our Father, for the holy Vine of thy servant David, which thou hast made known to us through thy servant Jesus.” “Glory be to thee, world without end.” Then over the particles of bread: “We give thanks to thee, our Father, for the life and knowledge thou hast made known to us through thy servant Jesus.” “Glory be to thee, world without end.” “As this broken bread, once dispersed over the hills, was brought together and became one loaf, so may thy Church be brought together from the ends of the earth into thy kingdom.” “Thine is the glory and the power, through Jesus Christ, for ever and ever.” No one is to eat or drink of your Eucharist but those who have been baptized in the Name of the Lord; for the Lord’s own saying applies here, “Give not that which is holy unto dogs” (Matt. 7:6).
When all have partaken sufficiently give thanks in these words:
“Thanks be to thee, holy Father, for thy sacred Name which thou hast caused to dwell in our hearts, and for the knowledge and faith and everlasting life which thou hast revealed to us through thy servant Jesus.” “Glory be to thee for ever and ever.” “Thou, O Almighty Lord, hast created all things for thine own Name’s sake; to all men thou hast given meat and drink to enjoy, that they may give thanks to thee, but to us thou hast graciously given spiritual meat and drink, together with life eternal, through thy Servant. Especially, and above all, do we give thanks to thee for the mightiness of thy power.” “Glory be to thee for ever and ever.” “Be mindful of thy church, O Lord; deliver it from all evil, perfect it in thy love, sanctify it, and gather it from the four winds into the kingdom which thou hast prepared for it.” “Thine is the power and the glory for ever and ever.” “Let His Grace draw near, and let this present world pass away.” Hosanna to the God of David.” “Whosoever is holy, let him approach. Whoso is not, let him repent.” “O Lord, come quickly Amen.” (Charismatists, however, should be free to give thanks as they please.) (Didache, sec, 9–10, ECW, pp. 231)


Oden, T. C. (1989). Ministry Through Word and Sacrament (160–161). New York: Crossroad.

[Sister Alvear]

wish I was as smart as some of you all!