Jesus and Spirit Baptism

[Deo Gratias]

Luke 3:21-22
21 *Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, heaven was opened:

22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape, as a dove upon him: and a voice came from heaven: *Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I am well pleased.

Ver. 21. The motive of his baptism, as he himself informs us, was, that he himself might fulfil all justice. What is here meant by justice, but that obligation of doing first ourselves what we wish others to do? --- Let no one then refuse the laver of grace, since Christ did not refuse the laver of penance. (St. Ambrose) --- Although all our sins are forgiven in baptism, still the frailty of the flesh is not yet perfectly strengthened. For, after passing this red sea, we rejoice at the destruction of the Egyptians, but still we must fight with assurance of the grace of Christ, against the enemies we shall undoubtedly meet with in the desert of this world, till at length we arrive at our true country. (Ven. Bede) --- It is said the heavens were opened, because they had been hitherto shut. The sheepfolds of heaven and earth are now united under the one Shepherd of the sheep: heaven is opened, and man, though formed of the earth, is admitted to the company of angels. (St. Chrysostom)

Ver. 22. The reason why the Holy Ghost shewed himself in the shape of a dove, was because he could not be seen in the substance of his divinity. But why a dove? To express that simplicity acquired in the sacrament of baptism. Be ye simple as doves; to signify that peace bestowed by baptism, and prefigured by the olive branch which the dove carried back to the ark, a true figure of the Church, and which was the only security from the destructive deluge. (St. Ambrose) --- You will object: Christ, though he was God, would not be baptized till the age of 30, and do you order baptism to be received sooner? When you say, though he was God, you solve the difficulty. For, he stood not in need of being purified at all; of course, there could be no danger in deferring his baptism. But you will have much to answer for, if, being born in corruption, you pass out of this world without the garment of incorruption. (St. Gregory of Nazianzus, orat. 40.)

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

what you are not grasping is that jesus is the same person as yahweh, only a human yahweh. human yaweh existed simultaneously with yahweh god. 2 modes of existence, 1 person. with the hs, 3 modes of existence, 1 person.

not i dont grasp it cause its theology and not bible

its not 2 modes of exsistance, its a actual father son relationship

im not new to oneness theology i used to preach it.

father /holy Spirit is YHWH
the human is Jesus, Jesus was His own person. Jesus worshiped and prayed to YHWH

Jesus went to Mary's Father (YHWH) and his father (YHWH) to mary's God and His God

The Human Jesus had a God named YHWH

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Yes, but the only difference is you feel this demands two different persons, whereas I think it is one divine person doing it all.

the Human is a person, and the father is a person.

Jesus makes the comment, as long as i obey my fathers commands i will stay in my fathers Love.


we also have 2 wills, not my will be done but thine.

The human interacts with God, as a child would with his own father, they are not the same person,

The father was the second witness.

[Dedicated Mind]

Originally Posted by acerrak

the Human is a person, and the father is a person.

Jesus makes the comment, as long as i obey my fathers commands i will stay in my fathers Love.


we also have 2 wills, not my will be done but thine.

The human interacts with God, as a child would with his own father, they are not the same person,

The father was the second witness.

why are you here? are you trying to convert op's to arianism or trinitarianism? I'm not budging. I have no doubt that jesus said before abraham was I am, he was referring to yahweh. the word was God. I and the father are one. what more do you want?

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

why are you here? are you trying to convert op's to arianism or trinitarianism? I'm not budging. I have no doubt that jesus said before abraham was I am, he was referring to yahweh. the word was God. I and the father are one. what more do you want?

because i still attend a Upci, i still go to a apostolic church

and im not here to make converts im here to plainly speak what the bible says, plus i been here for a year posting and i like our discussions, some of them anyway

lets look at john 10:30

i and the father are one- Now lets look at scripture to determine what is ment here.

John 17:22

Father make them One as we are One.

the word one in John 10;30 and john 17:22 are both En, they are used the same way John 17:22 shows us the unity of the father and son relationship.

Jesus himself prays for the same unity of his disciples. John 10:30 is not in One as in being, but unity agreement,

edit
you also asked a question and i gace my humble answer of it with scriptures. can i not give you scriptures according to the subject?

[Dedicated Mind]

Originally Posted by acerrak

because i still attend a Upci, i still go to a apostolic church

and im not here to make converts im here to plainly speak what the bible says, plus i been here for a year posting and i like our discussions, some of them anyway

lets look at john 10:30

i and the father are one- Now lets look at scripture to determine what is ment here.

John 17:22

Father make them One as we are One.

the word one in John 10;30 and john 17:22 are both En, they are used the same way John 17:22 shows us the unity of the father and son relationship.

Jesus himself prays for the same unity of his disciples. John 10:30 is not in One as in being, but unity agreement,

edit
you also asked a question and i gace my humble answer of it with scriptures. can i not give you scriptures according to the subject?

i don't like to argue about oneness, i'm just trying to clarify my understanding. you haven't answered the word was God; before abraham was, i am; god was manifest in the flesh; thomas said, my lord and my god; jesus said, if you have seen me, you have seen the father.

[Amanah]

trust me, this board would be much less interesting w/o acerrak, aquila, and others who bring other viewpoints to the table.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

i don't like to argue about oneness, i'm just trying to clarify my understanding. you haven't answered the word was God; before abraham was, i am; god was manifest in the flesh; thomas said, my lord and my god; jesus said, if you have seen me, you have seen the father.

again im not trying to offend you, im just showing you scriptures, and if i do offend you i apologize, and i am not arguing. You asked a question which i showed you scripture.


Thomas addressed Jesus as Lord, and then addressed the father in heaven all in the same sentence.

Look at the 2 verses after what Thomas said. John went right back to confess Jesus was the Son of God, Not that Jesus was God

john 20:30

30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

as before abraham was I am. Jesus said Ego eimi in greek, it simply means I am

it was not what was recorded in the greek lxx of exodus ch 3

were God said I am that I am , The greek which was translated by Jews 3bc stated Ego eimi Ho On I am the Being

they are different.

However i do believe jesus was with God in the beginning, (the beginning of Creation) God begotten a Spiritual Son YHWH JR which is the word of God

Bible says in phillipians ch 2 Found himself in the very nature of God and was equal to God and though it wasnt robbery.

(look up the word equal)

But emptied himself and took on the form of a servant. The word became Flesh
emptied himself of diety became a Man. 100% human.

Now some of the other people who have similiar views will state that there was no seperation until the word became flesh, at that time the word emptied of divinity and became a human Being

i like to point out that in John ch 1 the bible says he was with God twice, in this chapter, so i stay with my little YHWH jr that emptied himself and became flesh

as you have seen me you see the Father.

Any one ever told you that you look like your daddy. reason is because you have similiar features to your dad. The same way Jesus had similiar features of His father, in attributes like love, and when you see Jesus you see the kindness love and mercy of God. You se Gods plan of salvation.

when we See Jesus we see Him who sent him.

Just like the parable of the vinyard.

Matthew 21:33-41 [33] "Listen to another parable: There was a landowner(WHO is God YHWH) who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey. [34] When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.

[35] "The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. [36] Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. [37] Last of all, he sent his son to them. `They will respect my son,' he said.

why would they respect the Son , because the Son come in authority and power of His father, who gave it to Him.

[38] "But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, `This is the heir. Come, let's kill him and take his inheritance.' [39] So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. [40] "Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?" [41] "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end," they replied, "and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time."

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Amanah

trust me, this board would be much less interesting w/o acerrak, aquila, and others who bring other viewpoints to the table.

amanah you have a huge Heart !!

[Dedicated Mind]

acerrak, do you believe in 2 persons or 3 persons? the very fact that jesus preexisted makes him divine as compared to humans. there is only one God. therefore Jesus is God or do you believe jesus is a divine 2nd person.