Remitted on the Cross or not?

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Adino

Prax, this is an excerpt from my post #130 dealing with forgiveness vs justification:

I didn't say one could be justified and not forgiven, I said one could be forgiven but not justified. All who are justified are forgiven, yet not all who are forgiven are justified.

These are two very separate and distinct works of God: One is a work of remission performed on the Cross when Christ died, and the other is a work of justification when we believe.

The difference is in imputation -

Remission/forgiveness is where Jesus bears our sins. It is where our sins are imputed to him. God counted our sins against Christ and no longer against us. God 'laid on him the iniquity of us all' (Isaiah 53:6). God thought of our sins as belonging to Christ and 'made him to be sin who knew no sin' (2Corinthians 5:21). This took place on the Cross.

Justification is where Jesus' righteousness is imputed to us. Christ who was not a sinner was counted as a sinner because our sin was reckoned to him. Conversely, we who are not righteous by nature are counted as righteous because Christ's righteousness is reckoned to us. This takes place after the Cross, when we believe.

interesting thought

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Ferd

then why does one even need to repent?

this is a nonsense argument.

Ferd!!!! I found Ferd, kinda

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Ferd

With all do respect Adino, this post here in no way reflects the fist post in this thread.

your opening salvo is a false attack that undoes your own theology as much as anyone who believes that Baptism appropreates remission.

there MUST be personal application of the blood sacrifice. there is plenty of room to debate what form that application takes. But without personal application, there is NO personal remission of sins.

Ferd says . . .

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Ferd

Your point is that unless you believe like Adino you arent very bright. THAT is your point.


the problem is your brightness has blinded you. Who in their right mind disagrees that the price was paid by Jesus at the cross?

No Preacher in pentecost who believes the Acts 2:38 message disagres with that.

your OP is a strawman designed to make you feel smart. epic fail.

the issue is and has always been was does the individual appropreate remission?

this is the issue

[Aquila]

What are some thoughts on this thought?

How can a Christian "appropriate" that remission? That's like asking a Christian to appropriate their being born. If you had all the wood on the planet, could you build a ladder to Heaven after coming to faith to "appropriate" your salvation? Is it possible to reach into the air and pull down remission? lol

Personally, I don't think so.

Remission of sin is appropriated and applied by God through the finished work of Christ on the cross and is applied to you according to His sovereign will. That remission was originally applied to you by God when He chose you in Christ back in eternity (because God's choosing was predicated upon Christ's shed blood).

Notice something subtle here. There seems to be an ever so subtle push to find where we can take credit for our salvation. Where we can accept something, do something, or appropriate something. We want to get our sinful human hands all over the glory. We want to be able to say, "I appropriated that.", or, "I accepted that.", or, "I did this or that.", with regards to our salvation. We want to save ourselves, or at least have a part in it to satisfy that sinful human independence. It's rooted in that ancient desire to be like God. To be totally helpless and dependent upon God alone from start to finish is an insult to our radically independent human nature and forces us into the deepest humiliation. But God desires it to be that way. Why? To humble us.

The truth is... you didn't appropriate anything... and you can't. The Father chose you in Christ from eternity, predicated upon Christ's work on the cross (the blood). The Father then drew and awakened you to Christ through the effectual outer calling of the Gospel. Then the Father drew you to Christ through the effectual inner calling of the Holy Spirit. Then you came to faith and were regenerated, and thereby desired to obey. This godly sorrow was given to you by the very goodness of God, it wasn't generated deep within yourself. You COULDN'T have come to the necessary point of godly sorrow without God's goodness taking you there. You repented, were baptized, and saught to be filled with the Spirit as a result of God having changed your nature through your regeneration. No unregenerated person would desire to repent, be baptized, or filled with the Spirit. They'd rather go bowling and drink beer. So you can't even take credit for that. lol

I hope you see my point. Just give GOD glory for your salvation. Because it was a work of God that began before the foundations of the world were laid and will continue throughout your existence until your glorification.

Praise His name!

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Adino's a nice guy, Ferdando. He enjoys writing and talking about things and he certainly hasn't shown himself to be so "bright" that he is no longer capable of being wrong and admitting it. You just have to show him where he's wrong.

As to the "issue" that you mention here - "When does the individual appropriate remission?" - for me, it's pretty clear that the Bible teaches that the remission of sins is to be found when we turn to God in faith.

Paul repeatedly used the life of Abraham as an example (Romans 4:3 and Galatians 3:6). Abraham believed that God's promises were true and was called "righteous" by God at that point (Genesis 15:6).

After that, we have Abraham trying to "help" God fulfill His promises (the events involving Hagar in Genesis 16). It was after the thing with Hagar the the Lord appeared again and told Abraham, "I will make my covenant between me and thee..." and introduce an "outward sign" of Abraham's inward faith.

Abraham was still called "righteous" by God, even though he did considerably complicate his life by trying to "help" God instead of allowing God Himself to work out his own promises. And remember, Abraham was called "righteous" before God had even made the Abrahamic covenant. However, at the point of the covenant, now Abraham and all of his people (the men) were required to be circumcised. Anyone who was not circumcised was not considered "one of the inheritors of the promises made to Abraham" (Genesis 17:14) and were to be cut off from the family.

There is no mention telling us whether a hypothetical uncircumcised member of Abraham's household would be "damned for all eternity" here. We're just told that they wouldn't receive the promises (the land of Canaan, etc).

The key point here concerning the "issue" you have identified is that God calls a man "righteous" when that man (or woman) turns to God and with faith believes God's promises are true. Watching their life closely we may find them sort of wobbling a bit like Abraham did in Genesis 16, but we still know that Abraham "had remission" and was declared "righteous" by God Himself when Abe "believed God."

remission appropriated at baptism, and repentance, or not at all?

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Ferd is taking note that the poster is saying forgiveness of sins happened at the Cross. When in fact forgiveness of sins typically happens at repentance according to the Bible.

Repent and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out (acts 3:19)

The doctrine of the early church was forgiveness of sins took place at repentance due to the propitiation of the cross. Repentance without the cross doesn't do anything to remove sins. Repentance is where the act of the cross is enforced upon our lives. We have to accept that act before it can apply to us.

Hence saved by grace through faith. Baptism is the "cap" of the response, the answer of a good conscience toward God. We aren't talking about that though but are talking about when a person is actually forgiven. Our sins were paid for on Calvary but Jesus said except you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.

While the poster assures that its the sin of unbelief that we are condemned for, according to Romans and Galatians, its the sin of the flesh. The flesh reveals our sin and we repent.

repentance for forgiveness

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

repentance for forgiveness

The Greek word for "remission' is "aphesis". It means, "forgiveness". Remission and forgiveness are one and the same. It simply implies full pardon for wrongs committed.

859 // afesiv // aphesis // af'-es-is //

from 863 ; TDNT - 1:50
9,88; n f

AV - remission 9, forgiveness 6, deliverance 1, liberty 1; 17

1) release from bondage or imprisonment
2) forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they
had never been committed), remission of the penalty

[BrotherEastman]

Is the blood applied at repentance or not? Did Jesus do the work of blood atonement at the cross? If so, how is baptism and the HG part of the first step of repentance?

Don't get me wrong, I am glad to have been baptized and filled w/God's Spirit. The Holy Ghost is one of the the most precious things that God gave me; but I am more happy that he gave me forgiveness when I repented of my sins.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

Is the blood applied at repentance or not? Did Jesus do the work of blood atonement at the cross? If so, how is baptism and the HG part of the first step of repentance?

Don't get me wrong, I am glad to have been baptized and filled w/God's Spirit. The Holy Ghost is one of the the most precious things that God gave me; but I am more happy that he gave me forgiveness when I repented of my sins.

Is it possible that God Himself "applied the blood" to you, when He personally chose you in Christ before the foundations of the world were laid? Did He not chose you in Christ Jesus and predicate your election upon Christ's shed blood back in eternity? Did not God see you through the blood... before time began?

I think we often miss the eternal significance of the cross and all that Jesus did for us. We think of it as a bank account He filled in the first century that we must draw from. We often don't see it as a ransom He paid for us, unbeknownst to us, without our permission, while we were lifeless, cold, and dead in sin.