What Must I Do?

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Aquila

No... it only means that the Father awakens the spiritually dead before He draws them to the glorious light of Christ.

John 6:44
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (KJV)

Who can come to faith in Christ without the Father drawing them first?

"No man." ~ Jesus

Selah.

But not all come... some choose otherwise. Hence my previous post.

[NorCal]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Don't forget... before one can repent, be baptized, and filled with the Holy Ghost... it is the subtle prick in the awakened heart that causes one to even ask the question.

Acts 2:37
King James Version (KJV)
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

God MUST awaken the sinner to their need for a Saviour and convict of sin BEFORE repentance, baptism, or infilling can be profitable. Salvation begins by a sovereign move of God upon the heart of the sinner. Not just anyone can choose to obey Acts 2:38 and be saved in accordance to their own will. If their being "born again" isn't being "born of God"... we just dunked a religionist and shook them into jabbering.

John 1:13
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (KJV)

That is what the preaching of the Gospel does. It should prick the heart of the sinner. Peter preached the Gospel in the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ in Chapter 2. He even called them out saying "Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

They were pricked in their hearts for murdering their "Lord and Christ". Peter preached Christ, as we should also do. And when asked, "What shall I do to be saved?" our reply should be exactly what Peter said. Repent, Be Baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ, and receive the Holy Ghost.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

So someone who is pricked in their hearts and then refuses to respond to that prick.

Saved huh?

He was saved at the prick but then lost his salvation when he refused?

Explain to me how that works. Not all who are pricked in their heart decide that living for God is what they want more.

Excellent question!

This is the question that is behind one of the greatest debates in Christianity. Good and faithful Christians are on both sides of the debate.

One side believes that God, being sovereign and all powerful, knows how to break the will of those who refuse to respond to the pricking. This is called "irrestistible grace" or "effectual calling" and is primarily a Calvinistic teaching. They'd propose that while one might resist... grace will win, if they are elect. Then they believe that there are those who are emotionally or mentally moved by preaching, but God isn't at work in them so they resist the notion and go their marry way. Until God regenerates them, they cannot and will not obey the Gospel. Therefore prayer must be made that God, in His sovereign power, regenerate and save them. And God will only do so if God willed it from eternity.

The other side believes that if man resists the pricking of the Spirit, he will be lost. This is largely an Arminian position. Interestingly, those who believe this also believe that prayer must be made for the one who refuses, that God might break their will and save them from their rebellion (irrestitible grace). lol

So, Arminians often pray like Calvinists; asking that God do what Calvinists say He does... yet Arminians deny that they believe He will!!! ROFL!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by NorCal

That is what the preaching of the Gospel does. It should prick the heart of the sinner. Peter preached the Gospel in the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ in Chapter 2. He even called them out saying "Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

They were pricked in their hearts for murdering their "Lord and Christ". Peter preached Christ, as we should also do. And when asked, "What shall I do to be saved?" our reply should be exactly what Peter said. Repent, Be Baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ, and receive the Holy Ghost.

Amen, men are awakened (regenerated) through the anointed preaching of the Gospel that they might obey the Gospel (be converted).

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Excellent question!

This is the question that is behind one of the greatest debates in Christianity. Good and faithful Christians are on both sides of the debate.

One side believes that God, being sovereign and all powerful, knows how to break the will of those who refuse to respond to the pricking. This is called "irrestistible grace" or "effectual calling" and is primarily a Calvinistic teaching. They'd propose that while one might resist... grace will win, if they are elect. Then they believe that there are those who are emotionally or mentally moved by preaching, but God isn't at work in them so they resist the notion and go their marry way. Until God regenerates them, they cannot and will not obey the Gospel. Therefore prayer must be made that God, in His sovereign power, regenerate and save them. And God will only do so if God willed it from eternity.

The other side believes that if man resists the pricking of the Spirit, he will be lost. This is largely an Arminian position. Interestingly, those who believe this also believe that prayer must be made for the one who refuses, that God might break their will and save them from their rebellion (irrestitible grace). lol

So, Arminians often pray like Calvinists; asking that God do what Calvinists say He does... yet Arminians deny that they believe He will!!! ROFL!

Okay... I'll chuckle.


But now... could you actually speak to what my post had asked?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

No... it only means that the Father awakens the spiritually dead before He draws them to the glorious light of Christ.

We are not made spiritually alive from spiritual death before we even repent, Aquila. We remain dead until we appropriate what Christ did for us in conscious exertion of faith and are then regenerated. Paul associated awakening to newness of life and resurrection with so many of us as have been baptized into Christ. He also associated being dead in trespasses and sins with our need to be raised with Christ to sit together in heavenly places. There is no awakening to life from spiritual death before we even hear the gospel!

Rom 6:3-7 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Eph 2:1-6 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; (2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: (3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (4) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, (5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved (6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Death with Christ alone allows for resurrection into newness of life. And death with Christ requires conscious decision-making to die with Him in baptism. This proves awakening to life from spiritual death occurs AFTER we believe the Gospel, not before.

John 6:44
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (KJV)

Who can come to faith in Christ without the Father drawing them first?

"No man." ~ Jesus

Selah.

But the Father draws all, it's just that some refuse.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

So someone who is pricked in their hearts and then refuses to respond to that prick.

Saved huh?

He was saved at the prick but then lost his salvation when he refused?

Explain to me how that works. Not all who are pricked in their heart decide that living for God is what they want more.

That's close to an Arminian position. However, the Arminian would argue that it was God's Prevenient Grace that convicted the sinner, and that regeneration comes only after faith. The doctrine of Prevenient Grace is really messy and leads to all sorts of theological problems. That's beyond the scope of this post.

The Calvinist position is different.

Let's take Paul for example. God chose to save Saul (Paul) and use him as a light to the Gentiles before time began. Paul was elect in Christ from eternity past in accordance to the sovereign will of God. So fast forward... Saul is born. Saul begins to persecute the church viciously. Through the Holy Spirit, the Father regenerates Saul that he might see the truth. This of confounds Saul and troubles him, leading to even more fearsome persecution of the church. Saul continues to resist the pricking of the Holy Spirit. Now... Arminian theology would argue that God could let go of Saul and let him be lost. But that creates a world of problems. Was not Saul ordained to be the Apostle to the Gentiles??? If Saul is lost... God will have to either allow the Gentiles to remain in darkness or call on plan B (God has no "plan B", the thought is silly). So Saul refuses to heed the conviction of the Holy Spirit. He's regenerated (awake), walking around resisting God's will while persecuting the church. Now... God's "Irresistible Grace" is brought to bear on Saul. God knows what will break Saul's will. On the road to Damascus Christ appears to Saul in first person and blinds him. The experience radically altars Saul's perspective and he accepts the Gospel (comes to faith) and then he obeys the Gospel (repents, baptized, etc.). Saul then becomes Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles in accordance to God's will.

Now... was Saul "saved" while resisting? We have to realize that we are temporal and we're only seeing the change in Saul that God is working. However, from an eternal perspective, in God's eyes... Saul was saved from all eternity in accordance to God's own sovereign will. Before God said, "Let there be light.", God could say, "Saul IS my servant."

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

But the Father draws all, it's just that some refuse.

Nope. Jesus said,

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jesus will loose NONE of those whom the Father has given Him. Else Jesus didn't accomplish God's will. Also Jesus draws distinction between those drawn and given to Him by the Father...

John 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Who belong to God? Only those drawn by the Father and given to Christ.

Also note what Jesus says...

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

This verse doesn't say that God "draws all men". This verse says that God will "draw all men"... unto Christ. Since we know that all men do not come to Christ, we must conclude that all those who are drawn, are those who belong to the Father in accordance to His divine will... not the entire world.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

We are not made spiritually alive from spiritual death before we even repent, Aquila. We remain dead until we appropriate what Christ did for us in conscious exertion of faith and are then regenerated.

I've never seen a dead man appropriate anything. He's DEAD. Stand over a dead man and tell him to believe. What will happen??? Nothing. Life must be breathed into that dead man for him to do anything.

You also don't realize the implications of being ALIENATED from God. Man's spiritually lifeless soul is separated from God by an infinite chasm called SIN. No man can bridge that chasm with wood by building a bridge... nor can a natural and unregenerate man do it by his sinful, vile, debased, depraved, and sinful will through a profession of "faith". The devils believe in God and tremble, and they will NEVER be brought into fellowship with God. The only one who can bridge that chasm is God. This is why God must bridge that infinite chasm and breathe life into a man's dead and lifeless spirit BEFORE he can believe. Note what this verse states....

1 Cor 2:14
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (KJV)

The natural man (unregenerate man) doesn’t receive the things of the Spirit of God. You can preach to the natural man until you’re blue in the face. To the natural man, the true things of God are foolishness. He'd rather watch football and drink beer. He's spiritually DEAD. He desires to be in control, on the throne of his life, calling the shots, and ordering his own life according to his own will. He CANNOT know the things of God because they are spiritually discerned and he is ALIENATED from God. One must have their eyes opened (Acts 26:18) to turn from darkness to light. Having faith and desire for conversion (repentance, baptism, etc.) can only happen AFTER this eye opening regeneration occurs.

It's impossible for a natural man to have faith before being regenerated. Because said natural man would have to have faith in the things of God that can only be spiritually discerned. And Scripture clearly testifies that the natural, unregenerate man, CANNOT know the things of God. Thus he CANNOT know what to believe or place his faith in. He must be regenerated, eyes opened, awakened, and the truth revealed to him. Only then, after regeneration, can he have faith in Jesus. It's not rocket science. lol

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I've never seen a dead man appropriate anything. He's DEAD. Stand over a dead man and tell him to believe. What will happen??? Nothing. Life must be breathed into that dead man for him to do anything.

Now, you know very well that being dead in sins is a far cry from being physically dead where we do not have a mind to think with.

I presented scriptures that disprove your theory that we are awakened from spiritual death before we even know the Gospel. I quoted Romans 6 and Eph 2 that specifically refer to regeneration and spiritual resurrection/awakening from death, and you never so much as commented on those passages. Your analogy is totally out of context.

You are in effect saying that we resurrect with Jesus into newness of life before we even know anything about the Gospel so that we can hear the Gospel! That means we did not even need the knowledge of the cross in order to believe before we were already dead, buried and resurrected with Jesus! This is totally flip-flopping the entire concept of the work of the cross.

You also don't realize the implications of being ALIENATED from God. Man's spiritually lifeless soul is separated from God by an infinite chasm called SIN.

You're preaching to the choir. I know full well about being alienated from God by sin. The fact remains that sinners in sin can hear the Gospel and reason it out and choose to believe without having to be regenerated in order to do so.

No man can bridge that chasm with wood by building a bridge... or by his sinful, vile, debased, depraved, and sinful will through a profession of "faith". The devils believe in God and tremble.

You just contradicted yourself. You said the devils believe and you claim we cannot believe unless God regenerated us to newness of life? Did God regenerate the devils so they could believe? Come on. lol

The only one who can bridge that chasm is God. This is why God must bridge that infinite chasm and breathe life into a man's dead and lifeless spirit BEFORE he can believe. Note what this verse states....

That is absolutely wrong. Wow. I never heard such error to this degree before. Double wow. Brother! Phew!

We receive the Life of God that awakens us and regenerates us before we even hear the GOSPEL???? In effect, we rise to newness of life before we can even know we needed newness of life and that means we did not need to have any faith in the work of the cross in order to resurrect with Jesus.

1 Cor 2:14
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (KJV)[/INDENT]
The natural man (unregenerate man) doesn’t receive the things of the Spirit of God. You can preach to the natural man until you’re blue in the face. To the natural man, the true things of God are foolishness. He'd rather watch football and drink beer. He's spiritually DEAD. He desires to be in control, on the throne of his life, calling the shots, and ordering his own life according to his own will. He CANNOT know the things of God because they are spiritually discerned and he is ALIENATED from God. One must have their eyes opened (Acts 26:18) to turn from darkness to light. Having faith and desiring conversion (repentance, baptism, etc.) can only happen after this eye opening regeneration occurs.

Here is a classic taking things out of context if I ever saw it.

Paul was talking ABOUT SAVED PEOPLE when he spoke of the natural man. He tells them plainly that they were too carnal to appreciate anything spiritual BUT THEY WERE SAVED ALREADY. SAVED people can be carnal, natural or spiritual. That is what he meant. That is why he later said he could not speak unto the Corinthians as unto spiritual people, because they were yet carnal. they were worse than natural, for the natural man is soulishly oriented, while the carnal man is fleshly oriented.

Man oh man. I never saw such rife error in all my days. Especially from you, brother. That is something else! WOW.