The Paranoia Of Grace.

[RandyWayne]

Ya know, asking a strong UC preacher to preach grace is like asking a democrat to vote for lower taxes. In both cases the holiness standards and taxes ARE their basis of power, and they will not give them up willingly.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

Ya know, asking a strong UC preacher to preach grace is like asking a democrat to vote for lower taxes. In both cases the holiness standards and taxes ARE their basis of power, and they will not give them up willingly.

I sure wish people would differintiate between holiness standards as meaning untrimmed hair, no beard, no short sleeves, ect as compared to real Biblical holiness.

After all with holiness no man shall see the Lord.

[Orthodoxy]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I sure wish people would differintiate between holiness standards as meaning untrimmed hair, no beard, no short sleeves, ect as compared to real Biblical holiness.

After all with holiness no man shall see the Lord.

Yes. The difference is:

Man-made standards vs. Scriptural standards

I heard Paul Washer once say that he never visits malls. He explained, "Others may, but I may not." Some people may need to hold themselves to stricter standards than others, but they shouldn't judge others for not holding to the same standards.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Orthodoxy

Yes. The difference is:

Man-made standards vs. Scriptural standards

I heard Paul Washer once say that he never visits malls. He explained, "Others may, but I may not." Some people may need to hold themselves to stricter standards than others, but they shouldn't judge others for not holding to the same standards.

That is true, I couldn't go to hooters to get chicken wings. My give an occasion to the flesh?

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

As long as it is a 10/90 percent mixture.

I have taught on standards ONCE since I have been here. Yet I did a complete series on justification-imputation-reconciliation-propitiation-redemption-sanctification-glorification. I am a blood preacher and make no apologies.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I have taught on standards ONCE since I have been here. Yet I did a complete series on justification-imputation-reconciliation-propitiation-redemption-sanctification-glorification. I am a blood preacher and make no apologies.

How can you teach justification by faith when you famously condemn everyone who doesn't agree with you to hell? You make theology, words spoken by a preacher at water baptism, speaking in tongues, a host of outward standards with no biblical foundation, tithing, futurism, and robably foot washing all necessary for salvation. It would be easier to be circumcised and keep the law than to understand how you can affirm salvation by grace through faith.

Mormons claim to believe in grace. Just using the words grace, justification, glorification,etc doesn't mean you are being true to the meaning thereof.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I have taught on standards ONCE since I have been here. Yet I did a complete series on justification-imputation-reconciliation-propitiation-redemption-sanctification-glorification. I am a blood preacher and make no apologies.

This from the same man who claims that all trinitarians are lost, and that if a man had a beard he wouldn't "go to heaven from THIS church."

While claiming to be a "blood preacher" its obvious that from Steve Epley's point of view it takes much more than the blood to save anyone.

[Michael The Disciple]

Ok I would like to hear from you all what you believe about grace. Go!

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

Ya know, asking a strong UC preacher to preach grace is like asking a democrat to vote for lower taxes. In both cases the holiness standards and taxes ARE their basis of power, and they will not give them up willingly.

This analogy makes no sense. Money is power in a very real sense, and it accumulates. Urging people to be less like the world increases one's power....... how, exactly?


I don't see how standards of dress and standards of conduct can be separated. And when a shepherd's leadership looks from a distance like a cynical power trip, you are both not close enough to observe and not charitable in assumptions.

I want to be led on a path to get as close to God as I can, not to get as close to the devil as I can and "still make it."

Problems with authority are difficult to veneer over, and are older than the hills. However, God expects us to both respect authority and wield it, as appropriate.

[Orthodoxy]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Ok I would like to hear from you all what you believe about grace. Go!

In Christ, there is nothing I can do to make God love me more, and nothing I can do to make him love me less.

"Grace ceases to be grace if God is compelled to bestow it in the presence of human merit. . . . Grace ceases to be grace if God is compelled to withdraw it in the presence of human demerit. . . . [Grace] is treating a person without the slightest reference to desert whatsoever, but solely according to the infinite goodness and sovereign purpose of God." - C. Samuel Storms

"Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. And the LORD said to Satan, 'The LORD rebuke you, O Satan! The LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is not this a brand plucked from the fire?' Now Joshua was standing before the angel, clothed with filthy garments. And the angel said to those who were standing before him, 'Remove the filthy garments from him.' And to him he said, 'Behold, I have taken your iniquity away from you, and I will clothe you with pure vestments.'" (Zechariah 3:1-4 ESV)

"The righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ [is] for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." (Romans 3:22-24 ESV)