The Paranoia Of Grace. - Page 4

kclee4jc · #31 10-16-2011, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

If you can't see the similarity, then there isn't much I can say. What does a strong UC pastor have to preach about if you take the subject of holiness standards away? What will a UC pastor do if he has nothing to threaten his flock with? What will a UC pastor do if he can no longer relate stories to the congregation of someone keeling over dead for questioning the "man of god"? "Standards" are the very basis of power to MANY UC preachers, just as the power to tax and spend is to a crooked politician.

Interesting that the latter part of your post talked about problems with authority. Nuff said.

I go to an "Ultra Con" church and the primary message my pastor preaches is RELATIONSHIP! He preaches prayer, fasting, and a personal relationship with God. He teaches a heart consecration and a love for God. RARELY does he ever preach on standards, and I don't think i have ever heard him preach on pastoral authority. There are few Apostolic churches that hold an higher standard of holiness than what our church holds, but because relationship is emphasised, standards rarely have to be addressed. I have seen wedding rings come off, televisions pitched, and sleeve length increase without ever being addressed by leadership! The Spirit has done the work because of the saints' relationship with God. And never has our pastor threatened us with scary stories of someone "keeling over".

kclee4jc · #32 10-16-2011, 08:50 PM

I think if some of you would actually get to know some "ultra con" preachers and attend a strong church you would change your opinions. When someone comes into our church, they don't notice the 'standards' near as much as the do the strong presence of God that is felt. Although some probably wouldn't because of the hardness of their hearts..

Dagwood · #33 10-16-2011, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kclee4jc

I think if some of you would actually get to know some "ultra con" preachers and attend a strong church you would change your opinions. When someone comes into our church, they don't notice the 'standards' near as much as the do the strong presence of God that is felt. Although some probably wouldn't because of the hardness of their hearts..

The time I spent in an "ultra con" church sounds very much like yours. Aside from the appearance, we had the friendliness and love extended to almost everyone who walked in the door. We had the strong presence of God also. But, after really examining the whole environment, it was determined to be the distinct difference in appearance that so many people credited for the presence of God showing up when it did.

Just because a group adheres to a specific dress code does not, and I boldly repeat "DOES NOT," mean they are any more priviledged to having the presence of God, nor are they any closer to the throne because of their man-made definitions of holiness...

No need in changing my opinions. They got changed when I joined the UC church, and I slowly but surely changed them again, more aligned with God's word, after moving on from it...

Michael The Disciple · #34 10-16-2011, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kclee4jc

I think if some of you would actually get to know some "ultra con" preachers and attend a strong church you would change your opinions. When someone comes into our church, they don't notice the 'standards' near as much as the do the strong presence of God that is felt. Although some probably wouldn't because of the hardness of their hearts..

I had to leave because I was ashamed of the unbiblical teaching. Men would come in with a beard and were personally preached at that it was of the devil. I felt funny because it was strongly taught that the Trins did not study to get doctrine that they taught but rather just the traditions of their elders.

I had all I could do in teaching Oneness to friends and family and so to take them to a Church that taught things not of the Apostles doctrine it was doomed from the start. They could then accuse US of holding the traditions of the Elders.

And yes the Pastor taught relationship and some good things. Yet the error seemed at that time to mar the good.

Michael The Disciple · #35 10-17-2011, 02:19 AM

Is there anything we can do where God would love us less? Well there are many things but lets just take one for an example.

5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

Paul addresses these people as brethren. He lets us know if one errs from the truth their soul will die. They were called brethren but now God sees them as WHAT? Sinners! So yes there is just one example of so many that can be given.

Surely we dont think Jesus is not loving us less if he warns us that our soul will die because we err from the truth.

So yes and amen there are things we can do and Jesus will love us less.

Quote:

In Christ, there is nothing I can do to make God love me more, and nothing I can do to make him love me less.

That means this quote is really just a Protestant Evangelical concept and not the meaning of grace.

Aquila · #36 10-17-2011, 07:38 AM

By grace one receives the Holy Ghost and becomes a partaker in the divine nature of Christ. That means that they have a new nature (are new creatures). One who is born again will have a deep sorrow for their own sins and seek to live a life pleasing to God as they learn to walk in the Spirit and take on the mind of Christ.

LUKE2447 · #37 10-17-2011, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Is there anything we can do where God would love us less? Well there are many things but lets just take one for an example.

5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

Paul addresses these people as brethren. He lets us know if one errs from the truth their soul will die. They were called brethren but now God sees them as WHAT? Sinners! So yes there is just one example of so many that can be given.

Surely we dont think Jesus is not loving us less if he warns us that our soul will die because we err from the truth.

So yes and amen there are things we can do and Jesus will love us less.

That means this quote is really just a Protestant Evangelical concept and not the meaning of grace.

God's love is limited and yet also beyond limitation. People tend to want to limit what scripture says about love and in many cases feminize God. This tends to have been a trend especially in the last few decades.

mfblume · #38 10-17-2011, 11:21 AM

Any time true grace is preached, there will be misunderstanding by legalists and liberals. Paul had to clarify himself several times in Romans 6 due to that propensity.

Michael The Disciple · #39 10-17-2011, 01:49 PM

Grace is the FAVOR of God. God being pleased to show you kindness. It is not just a doctrine it is an experience. When you have experienced it it makes you want to be very careful to keep it flowing in your life.

DrPhil · #40 10-17-2011, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Ok I would like to hear from you all what you believe about grace. Go!

Grace is the kindness of God that overlooks our sins and it is the power of God to overcome our sins.

Titus 2:11-12

New International Version (NIV)

11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,

It's more than a free pass, its power.