Deathbed Salvation

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

Well Jay I can only say I wish they had gotten to me sooner... but better late than never! I believe that someone who experiences deathbed salvation would feel a lot like that, a lifetime of regrets for God's work left undone but those regrets washed away by the blood. I think it is our human minds that just can not comprehend the mercy of God and try to deny Him his power to save those that we would like to believe don't deserve it. I wonder what God thinks of us spending time trying to guess who is in hell.

I can not know why it took so long, but is it possible that He had to wait for you to become sick of the world and all that it contains? He did not come for the well, but the sick. Those who love the world so much that they do not wish to leave it and all of it's pleasures, will never live for Christ very long. The ones that I have heard who make it all the way, have no desire for the things of the world in any fashion.

A person must have a hunger for God and His truth in order for Him to lead them into the whole truth.

[Sabby]

Jay,

What do you mean by "hunger for God and His truth"? Did CS Lewis have a hunger for truth? What about Francis Shaeffer? Did Martin Luther? George Whitefield? David Brainerd?

These men, according to your method, have no hope in eternity. Why don't we let God be God and stop trying to be His barrister for truth?

[TyronePalmer]

Originally Posted by Aquila

James asked if there were ANY sick among them. That means ANY.

You imply that if a brother or a sister had a sick and dying unsaved spouse or child crying for God's mercy, you'd deny them the anointing of oil and the prayer of faith that they might receive what is promised in James 5:14-15.

I'd anoint them with oil as we prayed and claimed the promises of James 5:14-15 in the name of Jesus. Then, if they died, I'd commit their soul to a just and loving God. Understanding that He alone can judge the soul, and I'd believe for the best. For His mercy endureth forever.

Ok, Let's take a look at James 5:12-16 NKJV

12 But above all,my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath. But let your “Yes” be “Yes,” and your “No,” “No,” lest you fall into judgment.

Who Is James talking to in this chapter and entire letter? His Brethren!

James 1:2 says this: "My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,.."

13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms.

James tells the brethren to pray when they are suffering, and sing Psalms when they are cheerful.

14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

The scripture CLEARLY tells us that if any among the brethren are sick let HIM the sick person call for the ELDERS of the church and let THEM pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

Now, are you an elder of the church?

15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much."

The brethren are called to confess their sins to one another, and pray for one another that they may be healed. Nowhere in these scriptures does it say anything about praying for and anointing an unsaved dying loved one!

But yet you say you would go and pray over an unsaved loved one and anoint them with oil and claim the promises of James 5:14-15, which would be going against the word of God and taking on an Eldership role that you have not been appointed to.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Salvation isn't a plan or formula. Salvation is a person, and His name is Jesus. He alone has authority to save in any given circumstance. You tie His hands...legalistically clinging to your interpretation. Leave all doors open for God. We get into so much trouble the moment we say, "God can't..."

It is written: Matthew 28:18-20 "And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

Didn't Jesus teach His apostles God's plan of salvation for the soul? And didn't He give them authority to preach His gospel, cast out demons, heal the sick, and raise the dead?

And how could any created being tie the hands of God?

You and many others cry legalism when one obeys the written word of God and believes what it says without adding carnal reasoning to what's written or leaning on one's own understanding, and then calls other believers to do the same. You say legalism; I say obedience!

Originally Posted by Aquila

I was a medic in the Army bro. Sometimes you have to carry the wounded because they can't walk on their own. And you never give up on trying to save them as long as they have breath in their lungs.

I'm God's medic. If someone is dying and crying out for mercy, hand me the oil...or... shut your trap and get out of my way.

I was in the National Guard and received the same basic training as you did, but it profited me nothing for my soul.

However, being a soldier of Jesus Christ is far more profitable and I am willing to lose my life for His name and the gospel. How about you?

[Jay]

Martin Luther rejected any truth beyond justification by faith. He hated anybody who denied the Trinity or rebaptized anybody. He only wanted to give small reforms to the Catholic Church. He loved the Catholic tradition more than he loved the entire truth of the Bible.

George Whitfield others from that time followed in more truth than what others had desired, however I have found that they were ever baptized in Jesus' name. We do know that there were those that did in fact baptize in Jesus' name and receive the Holy Ghost with the evidence of tongues (even though not everybody understood the full implications of this).

I do not recognize all of those you mentioned, however the Bible is clear and always has been. I do know that some of them walked in truth, and possibly in the full truth, however we do not know how much of the truth they knew and believed. The final fate of all men is in the hands of God, and He knows what all they knew.

[trialedbyfire]

Originally Posted by Jay

We do know that there were those that did in fact baptize in Jesus' name and receive the Holy Ghost with the evidence of tongues (even though not everybody understood the full implications of this).

FROM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabelli...ater_teachings

Sabellianism teaching of Modalism and singular name baptism was also accompanied by glossolalia and prophecy among the abovementioned sect of Montanists.

In 225 Tertullian spoke of "those who would deserve the excellent gifts of the spirit--and who...by means of the Holy Spirit would obtain the gift of language, wisdom, and knowledge."

It is reported that Sabellians experienced glossolalia and baptized in the "shorter formula" because of their denial of the Trinity. (J.H. Blunt, p.332,Heik,p 150, kelsey, pp. 40,41).

FROM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabellius#Modern_Movements

However it cannot be certain whether Sabellius taught a dispensational Modalism or taught what is known today as the Oneness Pentecostal Theology since all we have of his teaching comes through the writing of his enemies. All of his original works were burned. For example the outrageous doctrines that were purportedly believed by the Templars have recently been shown to be falsifications. The following excerpts demonstrate some of the known doctrinal characteristics of ancient Sabellians which may compare with the doctrines in the modern Oneness movement.

It always amazes me how in history tongues and spiritual gifts always seems to accompany oneness theology.

[Jay]

That is true. Another fascinating point to me was that when God revealed truth, He attempted to reveal all of it. It is a proven fact that in the Anabaptist movement (forerunners of the Mennonite and Amish) there were those who believed in baptism in Jesus' name and the speaking in tongues. However, the majority of 'Christian Fathers' attempted to destroy any record of the truth.

Martin Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin all had trouble with the doctrine of the Trinity, until they saw people reject it and move beyond where they had stopped. Then they launched persecutions.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Jay

That is true. Another fascinating point to me was that when God revealed truth, He attempted to reveal all of it. It is a proven fact that in the Anabaptist movement (forerunners of the Mennonite and Amish) there were those who believed in baptism in Jesus' name and the speaking in tongues. However, the majority of 'Christian Fathers' attempted to destroy any record of the truth.

Martin Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin all had trouble with the doctrine of the Trinity, until they saw people reject it and move beyond where they had stopped. Then they launched persecutions.

If you can historically prove they believed both those experiences were necessary for salvation then I would be interested...

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Aquila

If one refuses to be baptized... they are in rebellion and may certainly loose their soul.

If one doesn't experience the baptism of the Holy Ghost with the speaking in other tongues, they certainly don't have all that God intended for the church.

Mark 16:15-17
15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Yes, faith is FOUNDATIONAL. Faith brings a repentant heart. A repentant heart full of faith brings obedience. I believe any able bodied person is expected to respond to the Gospel in it's fullness. The sick and dying cannot.

I was responding to the claim that every conversion recorded in the Bible included repentance and baptism. Also the claim that there was a singular message preached (inferring that A2:38 was that message) isn't reflected in the book of Acts. I do believe there is one Gospel, and that Gospel is Christ and Him crucified. That's the consistent message throughout Acts, in fact that's what Peter preached in Acts 2. A238 comes only after the heaters of his Gospel message were convicted and asked what to do.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I was responding to the claim that every conversion recorded in the Bible included repentance and baptism. Also the claim that there was a singular message preached (inferring that A2:38 was that message) isn't reflected in the book of Acts. I do believe there is one Gospel, and that Gospel is Christ and Him crucified. That's the consistent message throughout Acts, in fact that's what Peter preached in Acts 2. A238 comes only after the heaters of his Gospel message were convicted and asked what to do.

It has also occured to me that even hearing the message (or reading one's bible) the hearers, being convicted, still did not know what to DO. So if someone reads their bible or hears the message in a place that does not preach A2:38 are we saying that they could not possibly be saved? I am more inclined to believe that any genuine response to God that changes a heart and life and leads to the fruits of the spirit are going to be good enough for God.

Meeting a lot of people lately with lotsa tongue talking and few fruits has just strengthened that opinion.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

It has also occured to me that even hearing the message (or reading one's bible) the hearers, being convicted, still did not know what to DO. So if someone reads their bible or hears the message in a place that does not preach A2:38 are we saying that they could not possibly be saved? I am more inclined to believe that any genuine response to God that changes a heart and life and leads to the fruits of the spirit are going to be good enough for God.

Meeting a lot of people lately with lotsa tongue talking and few fruits has just strengthened that opinion.

This is essentially what I was asking many posts ago when I brought up "Well, what about all those living in South, Central, and North America immediately after the events of Acts chapter 2?", to which I got a sorta non-answer (which sounded more like a code phrase that the "Chief" would give to Maxwell Smart after which he would respond with "huh?").