John 1:12-13 discussion - Page 2

Aquila · #11 01-13-2012, 12:01 AM

First God chooses His elect according to foreknowledge.

Second, God provides attonement in Christ.

Third, God provides propitiation in Christ.

Fourth, God draws the elect via a prevenient grace in both an outer calling (preaching) and an inner calling (conviction).

Fifth, the elect surrender to God and are converted (Acts 2:38).

Sixth, they are justified by faith.

Seventh, they are regenerated by the Holy Ghost.

Eighth, they are adopted by the living Spirit within crying abba father.

Ninth, they are sanctified by the name and walking after the Spirit.

Tenth, they are victorious in death.

Eleventh, they are glorified and sinless through the Spirit's resurrection power.

Adino · #12 01-13-2012, 01:14 AM

Hello Aquila, good to see you. Thank you for your thoughts on the ordo salutis. Though I would point out that theological sequence does not necessitate chronological sequence. There are theological sequences which can take place in the same moment of time. That aside for now, what are your thoughts on the position of the gentleman in my original quote? This gentleman makes an argument and I'm waiting for someone to point out the major flaw in his reasoning. Do you see it?

Aquila · #13 01-13-2012, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adino

Hello Aquila, good to see you. Thank you for your thoughts on the ordo salutis. Though I would point out that theological sequence does not necessitate chronological sequence. There are theological sequences which can take place in the same moment of time. That aside for now, what are your thoughts on the position of the gentleman in my original quote? This gentleman makes an argument and I'm waiting for someone to point out the major flaw in his reasoning. Do you see it?

I'm not entirely sure about what you're asking.

Adino · #14 01-13-2012, 04:29 PM

Does he have a valid argument?

Adino · #15 01-13-2012, 04:32 PM

Does anyone understand his argument? This is extremely important to anyone who holds the water and spirit new birth paradigm.

houston · #16 01-13-2012, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adino

Does anyone understand his argument? This is extremely important to anyone who holds the water and spirit new birth paradigm.

I do NOT understand his argument. Is he saying that people are born of God BEFORE they have power to be sons of God?,, or is that what he is arguing against?

bbyrd009 · #17 01-13-2012, 05:50 PM

I've read it from the beginning 3 times, and the Q now seems to have changed...

Adino · #18 01-13-2012, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by houston

I do NOT understand his argument. Is he saying that people are born of God BEFORE they have power to be sons of God?,, or is that what he is arguing against?

Yes, the author assumes this to be the position of his acquaintance and is arguing against this. The author believes his friend is suggesting that a person can be born of God BEFORE he is given the HOLY GHOST, i.e., the POWER to become a son of God. This is not his friends position at all.

Can anyone tell me what the author's mistake is which 1) makes this discussion somewhat confusing and 2) which makes him completely miss the real point of the passage? The author is making a huge mistake in his interpretation and I'd like to see if someone can recognize it. The mistake he makes is monumental in the history of the UPC doctrine of salvation.

houston · #19 01-13-2012, 07:50 PM

It would help if you posted the friend's position so we'd have better idea of where the author went wrong.

All that I see is the author's issue with the word "were." He is arguing that his friend used the past tense of "were" to say that we are born of God before we are born of God.

Adino · #20 01-13-2012, 08:20 PM

I will say this and give everyone a chance to figure it out on their own first. The problem lies with the author's understanding of the word POWER. With this clue can you see where he has gone wrong?