Common Myths about Gay Christians

[Truthseeker]

I guess next we will have molester christians?

Adulterer christians?

Gambler christians?


When does it end?

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Jay, what if God has called them to reach out to their previous associates and the gay community at large? Please don't tell me you're one of those who believe we should be bunkered into our pretty little churches and not go out into these sinful sub cultures to reach the lost.

Bro... I was a medic in the Army (91B10). Sometimes you have to run into the fire everyone else is running away from to save the wounded. Jesus (God) came down and associated with the sinful human community. One can be in the world... and not of it with relation to behavior. One can reach out to the gay community and not participate in their "after hour" events.

Then they are trying to reach the same group that God saved them from, but they are no longer gay. They may still have homosexual attractions. However to say that some one is gay indicates that they are an active participant in the gay lifestyle. That is why there are so many 'gay churches'. They wish to have all of the trappings of Christianity without actually having to commit their all to Jesus.

I view this as fallout of the easy believism, and charismatic movements that did not demand true repentance and never preached with any conviction. It was inevitable that this was going to happen.

[Truthseeker]

Jay is spot on.

[bbyrd009]

yup.

[The Matt]

I third it.

[DaveC519]

First, the Bible does draw a clear distinction between thought and action. Notice that Jesus said that if a man “looks at a woman to lust after her” he has committed adultery…in his heart. Jesus didn’t say such a man has simply “committed adultery.” Jesus drew a distinction between the desire for sin in the heart and sin committed. Thus, if one has fallen pray to such thoughts, it is revealed that they have an adulterous heart. Not that they have committed adultery. Any man who has struggled in this area must be honest and tell himself, “I have an adulterous heart.” Then such a man must make provisions to guard his heart and his actions that he not commit adultery. Praise God, Jesus can change the heart if such a man surrenders it to Jesus.

I disagree. And apparently I need to clarify my position. When I say that Scripture does not differentiate between thought and action, I’m NOT saying that when an un-Christlike thought enters into a Christian’s mind that it means the Christian has sinned. It is what we do with that thought that may lead us into sin. Notice above I said, “If we allow sinful thoughts to develop into lusts, even if we don't act on them, the Bible says it's the same as if we had acted on them.” Again, it is not a sin if a particular thought enters into our mind which is not Christ-like. It is what we do with that thought that may lead to sin. If we bring it into captivity to Christ, then we have not allowed it to develop into lust. Lust conceives sin, even if it only occurs in our heart. And that was the whole thrust of Jesus commandment in Matthew 5:28. He was saying that adultery is not just the physical act, it is the intent of the heart regardless of the act.

If the condition of the heart was not important, if harboring “adulterous thoughts” in one’s heart was not sin, then why advocate changing the heart as you do above?
Solomon said, “Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life” (Prov 4:23).

Jesus said, “But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.” (Matt 15:18-20)

Scripture does not simply command us to abstain from sinful actions, but from lusting in our heart, and that our entire mind be renewed in Christ (Ro 12:2).
Now, if any sin, whether in action or in our heart, we have an advocate- Jesus Christ (1Jn 2:1). If we confess that sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1Jn 1:9).

However, with regards to the blog… the question isn’t so much “thoughts”. It’s “desires”. One’s flesh can have desires that one honestly finds deplorable. Many have killed themselves because they couldn’t “re-wire” their flesh from liking things that they found to be detestable. When it comes down to biology… for whatever reason (repeated exposure or genetics) the biological response of a gay person responds to same gender pheromones. Their bodies don’t respond to opposite gender pheromones. That means, being close to someone of the same gender “turns them on” biologically. It’s a “switch” in the flesh.

The point is… they may hate gay thoughts. They may fight them as a straight person might fight thoughts of lust for the opposite gender. But, like a straight person’s body responds to the opposite gender, their bodies respond the same gender.

Again, what you have labeled as “desire”, the Bible labels as “lust”. Scripture never says that we will not experience temptation; it does (Ja 1:12), and commends us for enduring it. It also says “resist the devil, and he will flee” (Ja 4:7). We may endure the same temptation time and again, and time and again God provides a way of escape for that temptation.

With regards to 2 Corinthians 10:5, I think you are misinterpreting it. Paul isn’t talking about taking every thought we think captive as though we can control every thought that comes to mind. Paul is actually saying something entirely different. The following is a better rendering of the meaning behind the text:

2 Corinthians 10:5
English Standard Version (ESV)
5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,

2 Corinthians 10:5
Amplified Bible (AMP)
5[Inasmuch as we] refute arguments and theories and reasonings and every proud and lofty thing that sets itself up against the [true] knowledge of God; and we lead every thought and purpose away captive into the obedience of Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One),
Paul is talking about refuting arguments, opinions, theories, reasonings, philosophies, and thoughts, or proposals, and bringing them into obedience to Christ. Think, “culture war”… not "thought management".

A good example would be this: If they “proved” tomorrow that homosexuality was genetic and that they were in effect “born that way”…. We’d simply have to realize and inform them that their finding only confirms what is written in Scripture… they were indeed born sinners by nature. There is indeed no good thing in our wretched flesh. You see, while they will feel that their finding exonerates them from having to admit to sin… we can actually show how their findings confirm everything we’ve been telling them from the Word of God. In essence, we’ve torn down that theory, reasoning, opinion, argument, or thought and made it subject to Jesus Christ.

I agree with you that the first part of the verse addresses “systems of reasoning”. However, the second part of the verse does not in any way preclude “thought management”, but, in fact, specifically advocates it as the means of refuting ungodly “systems of reasoning”. And its meaning and application is not limited to this verse, but is in complete harmony with Paul’s comments in Rom 12 on the “renewing of the mind”.
In practical terms, the way to avoid lust being conceived in the heart is to bring every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.

So you’re telling me that a true Christian cannot have sexual thoughts outside of marriage??? Single people don’t find themselves turned on, sexually attracted to, or interested in having sex with another person UNTIL AFTER they're married??? Lol I have to be misunderstanding you here.

Yes, you are misunderstanding me. See above. I’m not saying Christians don’t have thoughts which are un-Christlike- they do. What I am saying is that it is important what we do with those thoughts when we have them. If we continue to entertain them, they will develop into lust. If we bring them into captivity to Christ, they are dismissed from our mind and we replace them with Godly thoughts.

I say this because even in the Song of Solomon the lovers are infatuated with the thought of getting together BEFORE their wedding. It’s holy, a blessing, beautiful, and altogether lovely when two people are in love to the degree that they desire one another above all else… but yet wait until the wedding night. According to you those singles who are engaged and find their minds wondering to the idea of being intimate with their soon to be spouse are in sin, non-Christian, and need to suppress those healthy and blessed desires. I don’t buy the implications of your position, therefore I cannot accept it.

Strawman. See above. A young couple will most likely be attracted to each other before marriage. But we must remember that the only sexual thoughts and actions which Scripture blesses is that which takes place within the context of the marriage bond (Heb 13:4), not before this takes place.

Now… back to the subject. Paul stated that many in the Corinthian church “were” homosexuals. And that now they are “new creatures”. First, you have a misunderstanding of regeneration and the process of sanctification. Being a “new creature” is because of regeneration, our union with God through the indwelling Holy Spirit. No creature exists like this and no one who receives the Holy Ghost ever existed like this prior. Therefore after receiving the Holy Ghost… they are new creatures. However, that is with regards to the “spirit” not the “soul” (mind). Throughout one’s life one must cultivate the mind of Christ over the carnal mind through prayer, meditation, teaching, and study. There are highs and there are lows. This is a process. The key is, as new creatures, carnal thoughts are against their inner nature. Thus, any carnal thoughts of this nature will indeed trouble them. Paul isn’t saying that after being born again of the Spirit they would never have another carnal thought or struggle with temptations. I find your reasoning a little flawed, again… if I’m understanding you correctly.

No, you’ve misunderstood me, so your argument is a Strawman. I’m not saying that sanctification ISN’T a “process”- it is. And that process involves the renewing of our minds, as quoted above from Romans 12. But we must understand that it is not the NT position that a Christian will sin after they are born again. God is not expecting us to sin simply because we continue to experience temptation, because he has given us a way of escape out of our temptation. Yes, if we sin and we confess our sin, he forgives us. But that is not the same as saying he’s expecting us to sin. If Scripture said that, then it could be argued somehow that it’s God’s fault that we sin. Rather, we sin when we allow lust to conceive in our heart. IOW, it is always our fault when we sin.

(continued next post)

[DaveC519]

The point is, there are Christians with a proclivity, or disposition, towards homosexual sin. Just as there are Christians with a proclivity, or disposition, towards adultery, stealing, gluttony, cursing, anger, violence, etc. Why is it one who struggles with stealing (klepto), anger issues, or heterosexual lust are acknowledged as being Christians who are struggling with the sinful nature of the flesh… but we don’t acknowledge homosexual Christians as being simply Christians who struggle with the predisposition of homosexuality in their flesh???

Again, you’re reading more into my position than what I’ve stated. I didn’t state Christians wouldn’t struggle with temptation.

Stop the hate and simply bring them to Christ. They may have temptations in this area for the rest of their lives. Some may even fall into sin several times throughout their Christian lives, only to get back up and try yet again to live for Jesus.

Wow. Jumping to conclusions, wouldn’t you say? Who said anything about hate?

Human beings are sinful wretched creatures. And there are all kinds of sinners. Christians are sinners who have been forgiven and are now in union with God through the Holy Spirit based on Christ’s righteousness, not their own. And every Christian I have ever known has experienced continued temptation towards a given sin of some sort. Let’s not make this one out to be any different from any other. There is only ONE unforgivable sin. Let’s not start making this one out to be a second, when Scripture states no such thing.

Again…wow! The predilections you have brought here are telling. When we are born again, we become a new creature in Christ Jesus. We disassociate ourselves with all previous “orientations”, regardless of the nature/content/subject matter of any temptations we continue to experience after being born again. All sin is sin. We can never justify sin, because Scripture never does. If we succumb to temptation and sin, we can repent and be forgiven. But we must also remember that “repentance” is defined as a turning away. We are new creatures in Christ Jesus precisely because he gives us power to become new creatures. Without that transforming power, we merely the old creature with a new label.

[bbyrd009]

Amen. I don't see a problem with it being a process, but I do see a problem when no process is present.
Consider how any word you might insert in front of Christian becomes a limiting factor, a wall others must overcome.

[Nitehawk013]

It's a fine line I think between being hard on sin, but loving to the sinner. Some err on the side of love, and give th eimpression they are accepting of sin. Some err on the side of law and give off the impression that they are judgmental or self righteous.

Would Jesus go to the homosexual and show them love? Without a doubt. He'd sharea table with them. He would also. I have no doubt, tell them to stop with their sinful living. Go and sin no more.

My fear in saying there are "gay Christians" is just as others have said. It almost legitimizes thier sick lifestyle. "iT'S OK TO BE GAY. jESUS LOVES YOU AND YOU ACCEPTING hIS GIFT OF SALVATION". (oops. Caps lock)

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by houston

Hypothetically speaking. You never saw war.

And many Christians haven't either. That's my point.