Rejoicing In the Sabbath:

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

I don't know of anyone who bows down and serves their Christmas tree as a god...

...Christmas, the way it is celebrated in this country today, does nothing to add to the story of Jesus or the Kingdom and in some ways takes away from the story of Jesus Christ by making the Christians who celebrate it with our current traditions look by turns, historically inaccurate, silly and superstitious as well as greedy and gluttonous...

Or, "bowing down and serving." Aquila? I would say this characterizes most of the people in America? "Christians" included. Heck, ME included, until just recently, although I never got way into it. But I have only recently become holier than thou here, so pardon...

LOL

You bowed down and served a tree! ROFL!

Dude... ancient pagans reveal what God meant by this. They treated their idols as though they were scientient beings. They bathed them, left food out for them, massaged them, tried to "please" them physically, waged wars to build greater temples for them. They sang to them. Talked to them. Prayed to them. Worshipped and adored them. They held "festivities" around their idols to "arouse" the god. To equate this grave sin to putting up a plastic tree and throwing lights on it to make the house look pretty is just... silly to me. lol

[bbyrd009]

Ya, it has to be a personal choice. Lol, they all do. You just can't legislate people's opinions, no matter how hard you try.

[bbyrd009]

Ha the grossest part is it's all directed at the kids, of course.
Honey, we're killing the kids.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Sabbath is indeed kept today. BUT IT IS ONLY KEPT SPIRITUALLY in Christ. Jesus is our sabbath. Paul already dealt with this. He said sabbaths and new moons, etc., were shadows of the body of Christ. Since we have Christ now -- the body -- we have the TRUE sabbath. We have what cast the shadow. We still need a day of rest for our bodies, but it does not have to be the seventh day. Sabbath day was a memorial of OLD CREATION. We are new creatures now.

Colossians 2:16-17 KJV Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: (17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The principle is: First is that which is natural, then afterwards is that which is spiritual (1 Cor 15:46). The spiritual is the true.

You’re not telling our readers about lunar sabbaths nor that the feast days were often called “sabbaths”. Not every time we read the word “sabbaths” is the writer talking about the seventh day Sabbath of the LORD.

Paul never kept sabbath after his salvation, but went to synagogues on sabbath because that is where he could reach the most Jews to preach to them about Jesus.

The writer of Acts calls the Sabbath…”the sabbath”. Luke never writes, “their sabbath” or “the sabbath of the Jews”.

He said he only did things under law in order to win people under law, not because God expected him to do it personally for God.

1 Corinthians 9:20 KJV And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

Totally different subject. Even in your paradigm, Paul keeps the Sabbath in Christ. Correct?

And sabbath is not included in the commandments of Jesus. Jesus commanded things the Old Testament law and ten commandments never commanded. Read Matt 5 and see that he compared HIS commandments with Law.

Matthew 5:21-22 KJV Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: (22) But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Ah…but you forget that Jesus is teaching rabbinically. Thus Jesus is interpreting the Law of God with reference to it pertaining to thought, word, and deed. In essence, Jesus is reminding them of the “spirit of the law”. Jesus isn’t nullifying the Law of God.

Not only that, but Gal 4 shows Paul's fear for those keeping days, months and years, and these were OLD COVENANT holy times.

Again, an indicator that Paul is taking about the “sabbaths” and the customs accompanying their observance in the Law of Moses. Not the Law of God.

He said Law was schoolmaster for ISRAEL ALONE, and only with them BEFORE Christ came. See Gal 3. And after faith came in Christ they are no longer under a schoolmaster. Chapter 4 carried the same thought on and said that since it was a schoolmaster for Jews who were under its bondage before Jesus, and Jews no longer should keep it, where did saved Gentiles get the idea that they should keep what the Jews are not even supposed to keep any more.

Again, the Law of Moses. It required the sacrifices for various violations that were intended to point them towards the Lamb of God who would take away the sin of the world. Paul isn’t writing about the Law of God.

Galatians 3:22-4:11 KJV (22) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. (23) But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. (24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. (25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (26) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (4:1) Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; (2) But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. (3) Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: (4) But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, (5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. (6) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. (7) Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. (8) Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. (9) But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? (10) Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. (11) I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

This was speaking about LAW keeping amongst gentile believers. Context from 3:325 proves this.

Again, you’re not distinguishing between the Law of Moses and the Law of God.

That is why he later said:

Galatians 5:1-4 KJV Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. (2) Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. (3) For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. (4) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Circumcision is only found in the Law of Moses, not the Law of God (the Ten Commandments). Therefore, again, in context Paul is addressing the Law of Moses.

Also, Sabbath Keepers are not “justified” by the Law. We are led of the Holy Ghost to obey the Holy Law of God because we are saved unto good works. Faith without works is dead.

TO BE CONTINUED...

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

You’re not telling our readers about lunar sabbaths nor that the feast days were often called “sabbaths”. Not every time we read the word “sabbaths” is the writer talking about the seventh day Sabbath of the LORD.

Paul said "sabbaths". That covers all of them.

The writer of Acts calls the Sabbath…”the sabbath”. Luke never writes, “their sabbath” or “the sabbath of the Jews”.

It is OLD CREATION sabbath.

Totally different subject. Even in your paradigm, Paul keeps the Sabbath in Christ. Correct?

It does not apply. Keeping sabbath day law is the result of human urge to make oneself refrain. That is not the case in the sabbath of Christ, except refraining from law-keeping.

Ah…but you forget that Jesus is teaching rabbinically. Thus Jesus is interpreting the Law of God with reference to it pertaining to thought, word, and deed. In essence, Jesus is reminding them of the “spirit of the law”. Jesus isn’t nullifying the Law of God.

I am not forgetting what is not there. lol

I never said Jesus nullified LAW. Jesus was contrasting his commandments from Law they heard before. Law is finished. The system of self urging self fits any law that exists! It is oldness of the letter to keep ANY law. We are to serve in newness of Spirit. Serving in newness of Spirit is to rely upon the divine empowerment within us that is present in the Holy Ghost baptism. It is following through with Romans 6:13.

Again, you’re not distinguishing between the Law of Moses and the Law of God.

There is no difference.

Circumcision is only found in the Law of Moses, not the Law of God (the Ten Commandments). Therefore, again, in context Paul is addressing the Law of Moses.

No difference. Law is Law. It is codebook religion. It is flesh urging flesh by fleshly will power to do good. It is devoid of God's Spirit within living through us as we cooperate with Him to do His will.

Also, Sabbath Keepers are not “justified” by the Law.

Matters not. It is self urging self to do and to refrain.

[Aquila]

CONTINUED...

Even back in chapter 4, he said Jews were in BONDAGE under the tutors and governors of Law.

Galatians 4:2-3 KJV But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. (3) Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

The ELEMENTS of the world are referring to the LAW commandments in the sense of ELEMENTARY SCHOOL.

Again, Law of Moses. Not the Law of God.

And the Gentiles were in a different form of bondage before Christ came when they served Idols.

Galatians 4:8 KJV Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

And for Gentiles to keep Law's holy sabbath day was for them to go from one form of bondage under idols to another form of bondage under law when the Jews are not even supposed to be in bondage under law any more!

Galatians 4:9 KJV But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Again, as with circumcision, for a Gentile to turn to the Law of Moses would be moving from one bondage to another. Not so with the Law of God (the Ten Commandments).

We know God only intended Israel to keep the sabbath day because it is from seventh sundown to first sundown of the next week, and the Inuit people in the Northern arctic regions see the sun stay above the horizon for months before it finally goes down.

What’s a Jew to do in the northern arctic regions?! LOL

I have a few questions for you….

Rev. Blume,

John wrote:

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin is defined as being “transgression of the law”. Can you tell me what “law” John is writing about? The Law of Moses or the Law of God?

Is the “Law” carnal, or spiritual???

HEB. 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Spiritual
ROM. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Does the “Law” judge no man, or does the “Law” judge all men?

COL. 2:14-16 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

JAM. 2:10-12 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Is the “Law” contrary to us, or is the “Law” not grevious?

COL. 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.

1 JOHN 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Is there no perfection in the “Law”, or is the “Law” perfect?

HEB. 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

PSALMS 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Did the “Law” end, or will it endure until the eternal state?
[INDENT]EPH. 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace.

LUKE 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.[/QUOTE]

Lastly, God stated that He would write His “Law” upon our hearts. Is the Law of God written upon our hearts to obey its precepts, or is the “Law” no longer applicable under the New Covenant?

Jeremiah 31:33
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Without drawing a distinction between the Law of God and the Law of Moses we have utter confusion. This is why we have so many silly standards with no moral compass. What you are proposing is an Antinomianist heresy. We need a sure standard. Again, John wrote:

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

What “law” is John speaking about? The Law of God, the Ten Commandments. This is the opinion of the early church including the Ante-Nicene Fathers:

"Have before thine eyes the fear of God, and always remember the ten commandments of God, - to love the one and only Lord God with all thy strength; to give no heed to idols, or any other beings, as being lifeless gods, or irrational beings or demons. Consider the manifold workmanship of God, which received its beginning through Christ. Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence; it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for the idleness of the hands." (Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 7, p. 413, 1951 edition).

Repent Rev. Blume. You’re making the Word of God of none effect through your Antinomian doctrine. Without a sure standard for sin (a law whereby we might know sin) we are lost on a sea of relativism that leaves us in bondage to the arbitrary whims of legalistic pastors.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

CONTINUED...
What’s a Jew to do in the northern arctic regions?! LOL

I thought you said everyone should keep seven day sabbath.

I have a few questions for you….

Rev. Blume,

John wrote:

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin is defined as being “transgression of the law”. Can you tell me what “law” John is writing about? The Law of Moses or the Law of God?

Law is Law. Even God called Moses' Law the Law of God.

Joshua 8:31 KJV As Moses the servant of the LORD commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings.

Joshua 24:26 KJV And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the LORD.

Is the “Law” carnal, or spiritual???

HEB. 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Spiritual
ROM. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Yes, but WHY did Paul say the Law was spiritual? You are missing context.

Paul was citing Mosaic Law when he wrote both passages you noted above. As I showed, this was Law of God, anyway. In Romans 7, Paul explained how law came to him as a young JEWISH man at his bar Mitzvah, when Jews were responsible of the Law. Law was ordained to LIFE but Paul found it to be unto DEATH (Rom. 7:10). It was Mosaic Law that was said to cause them to LIVE through obedience to it (Lev 18:5).

Paul learned that a force called SIN was in his life, since whenever he put forth human effort to obey that law, that force stirred up inside him and caused him to do what he did not want to do. He sinned instead of did the good that the law urged him to do. This is how Paul learned we have SIN IN OUR FLESH, even after we are saved.

Paul hypothetically asked the reader if that mean the law was evil. Of course not. The problem was not with LAW, but with US! We have sin in our flesh! And when we urge flesh to do good, sin in that flesh is stirred up and we put ourselves, through such efforts, under the bondage of sin. That is serving God in oldness of the letter. It fails everytime.

It matters not if someone is seeking to justify themselves with it or not. The point is that keeping a law is urging self to obey a commandment in the power of flesh. And that stirs sin up in us. The only way to leave sin dormant is to stop urging flesh to obey commandments of any kind. Instead, serve in newness of the Spirit by following Romans 6:13.

Romans 6:13 KJV Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

We yield ourselves to sin when we use human effort to serve God. Walking after the flesh is not adultery and murder and lying, etc., in the context of Romans 6-7. It is trying to do the will of God by resorting to rulebook christianity. It is devoid of Spirit empowerment by faith,as Romans 6:13 encourages.

So, Paul said the Law is quite spiritual itself, even though it is a carnal commandment due to its urgings to get us to perform carnal deeds! Law would WORK if man did not have SIN IN HIS FLESH. Sin in the flesh stirs up like a monster aroused every time we use flesh to do good and keep a rule.

Does the “Law” judge no man, or does the “Law” judge all men?

COL. 2:14-16 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

JAM. 2:10-12 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

You are missing the purpose in God sending Law. Paul said God sent law TO PROVE MAN CANNOT LIVE BY RULES. We fail everytime. God knew we would fail, but we did not know that.

Think of God bringing the salvation of grace immediately after Adam blew it and God stepped in back in Genesis 3. God says I will justify you freely by faith. Adam would respond saying, "Thanks, God. But I think I can do it myself."

But give man a law like God did to Israel for 1,500 years,and see how MAN CANNOT KEEP LAW, then give man the salvation by grace. MAN WOULD GRAB IT! He would have learned he cannot keep laws due to sin in his flesh, no matter how much he tries to please God with works of obedience. This is how Law was a schoolmaster to bring Israel to Christ!

The Law of liberty is not the Law of God. The law of liberty is the same law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, which is basically Romans 6:13.

Is the “Law” contrary to us, or is the “Law” not grevious?

COL. 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.

1 JOHN 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Is there no perfection in the “Law”, or is the “Law” perfect?

You are again missing the forest for the trees. ANY LAW that is commandments for us to obey is not what God wants for us.

The law of God that John referred to was those of Jesus! His yoke is easy!

HEB. 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

PSALMS 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

They are one and the same Law in both verses! The difference you are missing is that the one verse in Hebrews shows that man could not comply to law. The Psalm is saying the law is perfect in itself. But the flaw in the context of Hebrews 7 is that MAN CANNOT CONTINUE IN IT, or in other words, cannot keep it.

Did the “Law” end, or will it endure until the eternal state?
[INDENT]EPH. 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace.

LUKE 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

You miss the context of Luke 16 also. Read the passage:

Luke 16:16-17 KJV The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. (17) And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Notice the LAW WAS UNTIL JOHN. It stopped with JOHN. And then Jesus remarked that it is easier for heaven and earth to pass than for law to pass. In other words, John's ministry was so powerful that IT DID WHAT normally would never happen so long as heaven and earth existed!

Lastly, God stated that He would write His “Law” upon our hearts. Is the Law of God written upon our hearts to obey its precepts, or is the “Law” no longer applicable under the New Covenant?

Law written in our hearts is OUR NATURES CHANGED. In other words, God does through Christ and the Spirit in our lives WHAT LAW COULD NOT DO by us resorting to it on paper. He caused us to walk in His statutes by divine empowerment of the Spirit.

LAW had the goal of creating true faith, love from a pure heart and a good conscience.

1 Timothy 1:5 KJV Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

But law could not accomplish that in us. It was perfect in itself, but imperfect in being unable to relate to us a change.

So God did in GRACE what Law (the same law in context that was spiritual) could not do:

Romans 8:3-4 KJV For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

And the very things that Law tried to instill within man, and could not, were instilled in us BY GRACE!

1 Timothy 1:14 KJV And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Jeremiah 31:33
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Without drawing a distinction between the Law of God and the Law of Moses we have utter confusion.

No we do not.


Without seeing the common denominator of ANY LAW WRITTEN IN LETTERS for us to read and obey is flesh urging flesh. And though such a law be perfect in and of itself, humankind cannot keep it since sin is in the flesh. That sin stirs up when self tries to improve self.

Without seeing the difference between ANY OBEDIENCE-DEMANDING LAW and Grace, shown in the two trees in the Garden, one will be lost in legalism.

This is why we have so many silly standards with no moral compass. What you are proposing is an Antinomianist heresy. We need a sure standard. Again, John wrote:

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

That verse only shows what sin is. That is what law -- ANY LAW -- came to do. Show sin..

What “law” is John speaking about? The Law of God, the Ten Commandments. This is the opinion of the early church including the Ante-Nicene Fathers:

Again, missing the forest of LAW for the trees of distinctive laws.

Repent Rev. Blume. You’re making the Word of God of none effect through your Antinomian doctrine. Without a sure standard for sin (a law whereby we might know sin) we are lost on a sea of relativism that leaves us in bondage to the arbitrary whims of legalistic pastors.

Oh please.

lol

Learn grace, bro. Get out of self making-self better by resorting to code books. That is oldness of the letter!

[bbyrd009]

REVEREND Blume. Dang. I appreciate your argument, but the dearth of the actual word Sabbath in that slavery-pointing-out quote just seems to point to other observances of "days, and months, and times, and years..." seems like the...annulment? of a Command would come a bit more officially.

Please understand that I would prefer to not have a wall between me and you pagan, misguided, Sunday-shleppers, though; I will keep praying for you (from my position, On High : ) ok, a low wall.
electrified.
oh, and can you keep your kids away from my kids?
lol

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

REVEREND Blume. Dang. I appreciate your argument, but the dearth of the actual word Sabbath in that slavery-pointing-out quote just seems to point to other observances of "days, and months, and times, and years..." seems like the...annulment? of a Command would come a bit more officially.

Please understand that I would prefer to not have a wall between me and you pagan, misguided, Sunday-shleppers, though; I will keep praying for you (from my position, On High : ) ok, a low wall.
electrified.
oh, and can you keep your kids away from my kids?
lol

Byrd...I just have to take a sec to say, you just amaze me. I am never curious on forums about people as far as what they do not choose to reveal... but your posts make me want to know your gender, age, family status..and even see your picture, lol... because every time I think I have you sort of pegged even for a minute you go off in some other direction...

Enjoying the ride!

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

Byrd...you go off in some other direction...

Ha, I have no idea where that came from. My userpage will answer everything but "single," lol.