Women Bishop

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

another poor comparison. I would address what "not teach" and "silent in church" means but just dont have the umph to do so.

Ah, so there is hidden meaning......I'd really be interested to hear it, but I really doubt you know what it means, hence the "I don't have the umph" to do so.

The Bible says what is says. Why is it that you take certain things literally, but not others? Sorry, but you are guilty of the very thing you accuse others of - selectivism.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

Ah, so there is hidden meaning......I'd really be interested to hear it, but I really doubt you know what it means, hence the "I don't have the umph" to do so.

The Bible says what is says. Why is it that you take certain things literally, but not others? Sorry, but you are guilty of the very thing you accuse others of - selectivism.

Ok

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

Does your church allow women Sunday School teachers?

What my church does and doesn't allow has absolutely nothing to do with the bible teaching that a bishop MUST be a male.

By the way, I don't have a church. Nobody but Jesus Christ has a church.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

another poor comparison. I would address what "not teach" and "silent in church" means but just dont have the umph to do so.

Isn't "usurping authority over the man", in I Timothy 2:12, the point when addressing teaching or remaining silent?

It appears that I Timothy 2:13 and I Cor. 11:3;8, would suggest that God has placed an order of authority in the man/woman relationship, including those in the church.

Being that the NT is very plain that both sexes are involved in ministry which also involves the ministry of spiritual gifts, (I Peter 4:10; I Corinthians 12:7-11; I Corinthians 12:12-26; Galatians 3:28) it only stands to reason, as is God's theme - everything should be done decently and in order.

At least, that's what I get from the scriptures.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Isn't "usurping authority over the man", in I Timothy 2:12, the point when addressing teaching or remaining silent?

It appears that I Timothy 2:13 and I Cor. 11:3;8, would suggest that God has placed an order of authority in the man/woman relationship, including those in the church.

Being that the NT is very plain that both sexes are involved in ministry which also involves the ministry of spiritual gifts, (I Peter 4:10; I Corinthians 12:7-11; I Corinthians 12:12-26; Galatians 3:28) it only stands to reason, as is God's theme - everything should be done decently and in order.

At least, that's what I get from the scriptures.

Partially yes. There were actually women who were teaching falsely that woman was created first and was the source of all life. They were teaching to the end that women had a natural authority over men as was seen in the temples where Diana worship was practiced. Paul was trying to put a stop to that by saying women should not teach that (women having authority over men) but that they were equal in the kingdom.

In the case of silence there were women who were unlearned and extremely disruptive, shouting across the room to their husbands with questions and interrupting the speaker. Paul addresses them by demanding silence (from these particular women) and that they learn from their own husbands at home.

The problem comes when we try to take letters addressed to certain groups that were experiencing specific problems and apply them over all people for all time. In order to do that we have to pick out single verses ignoring the scriptures around it, ignore the author's other writings on the same subjects that obviously contradict, and ignore the overall attitudes of the authors and of Jesus completely, etc. It is quite a stretch and never stands up to close scrutiny. Unfortunately it is a very common way the bible is used to support untruths.

An epiphany for me was when I once stumbled on an article titled 'God approves of abortion". The article was incredibly well written and used many, many scriptures to back the point that God would favor the termination of a child in the womb. I was astounded and then enlightened... In a moment God had used something so terrible to show me that there is almost no point one can not make, no matter how absurd, using scripture if this methodology is employed. If forever opened my eyes to the fact that we have to personally and intimately know our God and His character and be full of His spirit before we can hope to understand scripture.

God made them male and female right from the start. He did not create a superior and an inferior, he created equals. He does not place limitations on us in His work, His word is clear on that. Only people place limitations...on themselves, on others. I know many women who also espouse this idea... it is very comfortable to be excused from God's most challenging callings by the idea that you 'can't', so it is not a man against woman issue.

I would ask that each person involved here continue to seek answers... I am not sure how God views those who attempt to slow or stop the progress of the Kingdom's work but in my heart of hearts I can not imagine that it could be good.

Peace.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Who was Junia? And, since the days of following Jesus were over, why then wasn't a women nominated to be a disciple when Judas was replaced? Why weren't the daughters of Jacob considered to be part of the 12? Dinah was a daughter of Jacob, why couldn't she have been part of the 12?

I do agree with this. Double standard if you ask me!

You'll note I did not say women have no position in teaching. In fact, Paul does encourage women to teach. I have heard many women teach and it was very encouraging and edifying.



Those verses are speaking of salvation. In Christ, in salvation, we are all alike. Yes. We all stand at the foot of the cross together. But salvation does not change me from a female to a male. I am still a female. Salvation, and the spirit cannot change that fact. That is a natural law. And what God had to say in the Garden to Eve still remains in effect today, because until Satan is bound, his head has not yet been completely bruised, and we women are still living under that same "curse" - as far as I know, women are not yet able to have childbirth without pain. Did salvation change that? No. This is a natural law God put in place, and will remain, despite salvation, and the Cross until the day Jesus Christ returns to bruise the head of Satan, which thing we have not yet seen.

Absolutely. God used Sarah, Hannah, Ruth, Esther, the Mary's and probably more that we don't know of. But check out their record. It stands today. Their great deeds were also accomplished with that "ugly" word women hate - submission. Yet, it is a beautiful thing when completely understood It is after all, God's law, not man's.



Yes, there are natural laws, and spiritual laws. But when women begin to stop having pain in childbirth, and males change to females upon salvation, then we can talk about how we don't have to deal with natural laws anymore, because spiritual laws rule.

We are dealing with a natural law set in place by God himself. I have read the scriptures, and read the stories as you have yourself. Submission is a team effort, as demonstrated by how Eve came OUT OF Adam's side. She was not made a separate and distinct being herself. That in itself is conclusive in proving that God made a point at creation that can't be ignored. It is a natural law, that no "spiritual" law can supersede. The women is of the man, from the man, and the two working together are what God intended. It is a beautiful thing, the way God created it.

But because women are the daughter's of Eve, it is something we don't want to hear. We want to somehow change things up. It just doesn't seem fair that we should be created for the glory of the man - according to Paul in 1 Cor. 11. Fair or not, that is how God created this natural law (submission).

T2W, I can tell this issue is near and dear to you. It is to me too. But I have seen firsthand the blessing that comes about with applying this principle to my life. It does work.

KBTW... I wanted to say more this morning but was pressed for time.

I agree with you about issues of submission as far as a woman being submitted to her own husband. I am indeed submitted to mine as well as both of us being submitted to the Lord and it has brought me great joy. However I am in no way submitted to or under all men. The position of most people who espouse these teachings is that within the church all men are over all women all of the time and no man can learn anything from any woman. Do you agree with this?

However there are single, divorced and widowed ladies as well as women who's callings are recognized by their own husbands. I can not in good conscience tell those women that if they follow their call they are somehow out of creations order or out of God's will. And yes this is an issue near and dear to my heart. My husband and I have for years taught seeker bible studies to mixed gender small groups. Don and I work different shifts which sometimes leaves one of us teaching alone... It was the fact that I would, in some instances, be teaching men that made me first study this out... Because above all things I do not ever want to be out of the will of God.

I have had times that I have wanted to throw in the towel on this... God has not released me... and I've had a moment or two of doubt when I would have loved for this to be an excuse... but I haven't managed to convince the Lord that I am not able or qualified yet

However I do believe that we will see a woman a president before the church as a whole agrees that it is just OK with God for one to preach... For that I believe we will need to see Jesus come back.

[gthaywood1880]

From reading various articles about women in ministry I believe the so called office of a bishop was created and used to hinder women and preserve the Roman Catholic idea of a clergy/laity style of leadership. I was at one point confused about women pastor's but when studying the topic more I began see to see a different perspective on it my main issue is why would Oneness Apostolic people who claim to follow truth would want to hold on to the teachings of the Roman Catholic System.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by seekerman

What my church does and doesn't allow has absolutely nothing to do with the bible teaching that a bishop MUST be a male.

By the way, I don't have a church. Nobody but Jesus Christ has a church.

Nice dodge, my friend, but I see through your smoke screen.

If the church that you attend allows women teachers, it is in violation of the Word.

So, for you to continue to try and make your case against women bishops is hypocritical and disingenuous.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Ok

Here's the scripture to which I refer:

1 Timothy 2:12
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Let me help you out with definitions taken directly from Strong's:

Teach -
1) to teach
a) to hold discourse with others in order to instruct them, deliver didactic discourses
b) to be a teacher
c) to discharge the office of a teacher, conduct one's self as a teacher
2) to teach one
a) to impart instruction
b) instill doctrine into one
c) the thing taught or enjoined
d) to explain or expound a thing
f) to teach one something

Silence -
1) quietness
a) description of the life of one who stays at home doing his own work, and does not officiously meddle with the affairs of others
2) silence

Seems pretty clear to me, but I'd be interested in hearing your take on it.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by gthaywood1880

From reading various articles about women in ministry I believe the so called office of a bishop was created and used to hinder women and preserve the Roman Catholic idea of a clergy/laity style of leadership. I was at one point confused about women pastor's but when studying the topic more I began see to see a different perspective on it my main issue is why would Oneness Apostolic people who claim to follow truth would want to hold on to the teachings of the Roman Catholic System.