Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

Just a new theory for me... I've heard life at conception and I've heard life equated with breath (partially from the Bible) but never 'becoming progressively more human'. Interesting...

I think if you surveryed people and asked them to describe their feelings about abortion in these time frames...
1 day:
1 week:
1 month:
2 months:
...
all the way to...
8 months:

I think you would find the that the closer the pregnancy is to term the stronger the negative feelings are toward abortion. In fact I think this phenomenon is even present in our laws with us typically outlawing "at-will" abortions after the pregnancy is so far along.

Here's another aspect to this theory. You can believe that life happens at conception. The question I want to bring up is whether a 1 - 10000 celled organism can really be thought of as human. That's never my picture of a human is it yours?

[Hoovie]

Jfrog, i think you may have the same difficulty then. Do you admit that elective abortion a day before birth is murder? Do you disagree with laws now in place, that allow murder charges for killing a fetus?

[AreYouReady?]

Perhaps there is some misconception about my term "medical procedures"?

Abortions are only willful when the mother does not want the baby for whatever reason.

The medical procedures I am referring to are done removing the baby when it is certain that neither will survive during a full-blown medical crisis. The baby actually has a chance to survive outside the womb, whereas the baby will not have a chance to survive if he/she remains in the womb of a mother in a medical crisis. If the mother dies from bleeding, stroke or other maladies, this will ensure the baby's death. These are the medical procedures I am talking about...not the willful act of taking a baby's life when there is a viable pregnancy.

There was a case (I cannot remember all the details) where a young woman was pregnant and some incident caused her to have severe brain damage. She was ventilator dependent. They kept the woman alive by artificial means while the baby grew to term. Then they did a C-section and delivered a healthy, full-term baby, after which the doctors and family let the mother pass away.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Jfrog, i think you may have the same difficulty then. Do you admit that elective abortion a day before birth is murder? Do you disagree with laws now in place, that allow murder charges for killing a fetus?

My problem would only be in defining when the fetus is close enough to being human to be protected. I have no problem with there being disagreements on this issue but I think a happy middle ground could be found between most parties on the when is too close issue.

As far as murder charges for killing a fetus. I could agree with them really late in a pregnancy but not before then. Even more than that though, I think we need actual laws to govern the killing of fetuses and not to just have it lumped together with traditional murder charges.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Perhaps there is some misconception about my term "medical procedures"?

Abortions are only willful when the mother does not want the baby for whatever reason.

The medical procedures I am referring to are done removing the baby when it is certain that neither will survive during a full-blown medical crisis. The baby actually has a chance to survive outside the womb, whereas the baby will not have a chance to survive if he/she remains in the womb of a mother in a medical crisis. If the mother dies from bleeding, stroke or other maladies, this will ensure the baby's death. These are the medical procedures I am talking about...not the willful act of taking a baby's life when there is a viable pregnancy.

There was a case (I cannot remember all the details) where a young woman was pregnant and some incident caused her to have severe brain damage. She was ventilator dependent. They kept the woman alive by artificial means while the baby grew to term. Then they did a C-section and delivered a healthy, full-term baby, after which the doctors and family let the mother pass away.

I think abortions are willful whether the mother wants the baby or not. The will is only taken away if its known both the mother and baby won't make it through pregnancy. If that's not the case then there definetely exists a choice (a willful decision).

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I think abortions are willful whether the mother wants the baby or not. The will is only taken away if its known both the mother and baby won't make it through pregnancy. If that's not the case then there definetely exists a choice (a willful decision).

Well...I've finally gotten my point across.

However, I would have to question any mother's motives who says they want their baby, then has an abortion done. This is a case that actions speak louder than words.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Well...I've finally gotten my point across.

However, I would have to question any mother's motives who says they want their baby, then has an abortion done. This is a case that actions speak louder than words.

You're point? Your point was that only mothers who are in a predicament such that both them and their baby would die without an abortion are the only choiceless women? I don't think that was your position at all...

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Well...I've finally gotten my point across.

However, I would have to question any mother's motives who says they want their baby, then has an abortion done. This is a case that actions speak louder than words.

Certain death scenarios for all involved is the only realm I can think a woman is without a choice. Say the doctor gives her a 40% chance to live with an abortion and her and her baby both a 20% chance to live without an abortion. That's a choice wouldn't you say?

Or let's say she has a will surely live with an abortion and will surely die without one. But the baby will surely live if she doesn't have one. That's still a choice and there's no trying to save both patients in this scenario...

Or let's say she has a 80% chance of living with an abortion and her and her baby both have a 35% chance of living without an abortion. She still has a choice here too.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

You started it brother.

And for the record I didn't start anything. I made a poor choice of words and once that was clear I can't recall anything being an attack toward you.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Certain death scenarios for all involved is the only realm I can think a woman is without a choice. Say the doctor gives her a 40% chance to live with an abortion and her and her baby both a 20% chance to live without an abortion. That's a choice wouldn't you say?

Or let's say she has a will surely live with an abortion and will surely die without one. But the baby will surely live if she doesn't have one. That's still a choice and there's no trying to save both patients in this scenario...

Or let's say she has a 80% chance of living with an abortion and her and her baby both have a 35% chance of living without an abortion. She still has a choice here too.

It is scenarios like the last bolded one where I say medical procedures exist but even though it's not a choice of whether she wants the baby or not its still a choice about whether to have an abortion or not. It all goes back to what I was saying about those that count them as murder. In the scenario that a person equates them to murder it would be hypocritical for them to choose an abortion only for a better chance of survival for themselves.

Those are the kind of medical procedures where I say a woman still can have a willful abortion.