Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

[Aquila]

Abortion is a tragic reality. At the end of the day the question is... If a woman decides she doesn't want to carry her pregnancy to term, who ultimately has the authority to make the choice to abort or not? Government or the pregnant woman.

Think about it... if a pregnant woman wanted an abortion and the government said "no", the government has essentially seized her body legally and is forcing her to give birth. This makes pregnant women wards of the state. While I HATE abortion and I think it's a terrible tragedy... I'm not so sure that government is the answer. Someone has to ulitmately have the final say. Pro-choice people believe that choice should reside in the hands of individual women not state house bureaucrats.

Think about it... a doctor tells you and your significant other about a condition that could threaten the mother's life or render her infertile and states that terminating the pregnancy is an option. That's a very dark and painful moment. Do you want to have to have a board of doctors review your case and then appeal to a government official or judge for permission to perform the procedure... or do you believe that such a difficult and painful choice should reside between you, your wife, and your God?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Since frog is quite liberal with his questions about why christians do believe that the unborn is human, I have a few of my own questions to him.

1. Why do you declare that the unborn is not human until a certain week in the gestation period? You must have some reason for that assumption to debate it so passionately.

There are things called genetic chimmeras. These occur when there are two embryos that fuse together and make one human person. But since both embryos were human persons then both have souls right? And since neither embryo died then both souls are still in their body right? But that leads us to quite a predicament, we would have one preson with 2 souls... That doesn't make sense to me so I believe embryos don't yet have a soul and that the soul is infused sometime later during pregnancy.

2. Don't you think that women should be more responsible about their body when it comes to having sex? Don't you think that being responsible includes taking responsibility for a baby doesn't mean getting rid of it?

The only comment I have is that "responsibility" means nothing in a debate about equating abortion to murder or unborns to human beings.

3. Why did God and the people back in those ancient times believe in women being chaste and virginity was so important to the husbands that betrothed them?

What does this have to do with abortion?

4. You criticize that some christians do not bury miscarried babies.. not excusing that in many cases there are no remains. Yet you say nothing about the aborted babies being thrown in dumpsters, sold to laboratories for research, using them for stem cell research and other really disgusting things. Which is the greater sin?

I criticize christianity when it's actions don't add up to its words. The simple fact is that my criticism of no funerals for unborns was more of a revelation to me. It was evidence that Christians haven't always held to this human life begins at conception view and guess what... my conclusion based on that evidence was spot on. Christians haven't always thought of unborns as human beings. In fact one author traces the change of opinion to some time after 1979. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slackti...he-happy-meal/ This means that despite what conclusion you want to draw from unborns not being buried.. Christianity has not typically counted unborns as human beings until relatively recently. Further, it seems the number of unborn burials and memorial services are increasing and I think this is directly tied to Christianity's new position that an unborn is a human being. Therefore my originial assumption that unborns are not buried and given funerals means that they were counted as less than born human beings seems absolutely correct when all this evidence is taken into consideration.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Abortion is a tragic reality. At the end of the day the question is... If a woman decides she doesn't want to carry her pregnancy to term, who ultimately has the authority to make the choice to abort or not? Government or the pregnant woman.

Think about it... if a pregnant woman wanted an abortion and the government said "no", the government has essentially seized her body legally and is forcing her to give birth. This makes pregnant women wards of the state. While I HATE abortion and I think it's a terrible tragedy... I'm not so sure that government is the answer. Someone has to ulitmately have the final say. Pro-choice people believe that choice should reside in the hands of individual women not state house bureaucrats.

Think about it... a doctor tells you and your significant other about a condition that could threaten the mother's life or render her infertile and states that terminating the pregnancy is an option. That's a very dark and painful moment. Do you want to have to have a board of doctors review your case and then appeal to a government official or judge for permission to perform the procedure... or do you believe that such a difficult and painful choice should reside between you, your wife, and your God?

While I agree in your scenario Aquila I do not agree that abortion on demand should be legal or that a woman not being able to obtain an abortion for convenience is "the state holding pregnant women prisoner'... There are lot's and lot's of mistakes you can make that will not be fixed by medicine, procedures are refused by insurance companies all the time as unnecessary. Alcoholic who drink themselves into liver failure are refused liver transplants all the time in example. I believe that the criteria for abortion should be changed to being something beyond 'inconvenience'. Meeting women who are on their sixth termination because they 'can't remember' to take their oral contraceptive pills and won't get an IUD or implant or sterilization has perhaps made me jaded???

If a woman becomes pregnant and does not want to be pregnant but is otherwise healthy I absolutely resent that my tax dollars are used to terminate her pregnancy. I feel the government has no right to spend my money this way. That is also governmental abuse.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I criticize christianity when it's actions don't add up to its words. The simple fact is that my criticism of no funerals for unborns was more of a revelation to me. It was evidence that Christians haven't always held to this human life begins at conception view and guess what... my conclusion based on that evidence was spot on. Christians haven't always thought of unborns as human beings. In fact one author traces the change of opinion to some time after 1979. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slackti...he-happy-meal/ This means that despite what conclusion you want to draw from unborns not being buried.. Christianity has not typically counted unborns as human beings until relatively recently. Further, it seems the number of unborn burials and memorial services are increasing and I think this is directly tied to Christianity's new position that an unborn is a human being. Therefore my originial assumption that unborns are not buried and given funerals means that they were counted as less than born human beings seems absolutely correct when all this evidence is taken into consideration.

Be that what it may we are now able to see infants in the womb via sonogram and laparoscopy. We are able to save their lives at very early gestational ages outside the womb and technology will roll that age back even further soon. So we now KNOW they are human, feel pain, respond to stimulus, etc. If people were unsure before they can certainly be sure now from a medical standpoint, religion aside.

I don't think any scripture is going to satisfy you frog and it's the reason I haven't quoted any... but aborting healthy babies from healthy mothers does not fit the 'Be fruitful and multiply' model at all.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Abortion is a tragic reality. At the end of the day the question is... If a woman decides she doesn't want to carry her pregnancy to term, who ultimately has the authority to make the choice to abort or not? Government or the pregnant woman.

Think about it... if a pregnant woman wanted an abortion and the government said "no", the government has essentially seized her body legally and is forcing her to give birth. This makes pregnant women wards of the state. While I HATE abortion and I think it's a terrible tragedy... I'm not so sure that government is the answer. Someone has to ulitmately have the final say. Pro-choice people believe that choice should reside in the hands of individual women not state house bureaucrats.

Think about it... a doctor tells you and your significant other about a condition that could threaten the mother's life or render her infertile and states that terminating the pregnancy is an option. That's a very dark and painful moment. Do you want to have to have a board of doctors review your case and then appeal to a government official or judge for permission to perform the procedure... or do you believe that such a difficult and painful choice should reside between you, your wife, and your God?

One can prove that with a certain definition of human being whether a fetus is a human being or not but one cannot prove which definition of human being is the correct one. This makes the question a more philosophical and religious one and thus something that cannot really be answered by the government.

However, there are other reasons to ban abortion than simply because a fetus is a human being. A fetus being a potential human being may be enough cause to afford it some rights and do think that sometimes the rights of even a potential person my trump the rights of an actual person.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

Be that what it may we are now able to see infants in the womb via sonogram and laparoscopy. We are able to save their lives at very early gestational ages outside the womb and technology will roll that age back even further soon. So we now KNOW they are human, feel pain, respond to stimulus, etc. If people were unsure before they can certainly be sure now from a medical standpoint, religion aside.

I don't think any scripture is going to satisfy you frog and it's the reason I haven't quoted any... but aborting healthy babies from healthy mothers does not fit the 'Be fruitful and multiply' model at all.

Neither does contraception but I'm sure you're okay with that.

Medicine does not answer the question of what is a human being. Medicine says look we can see the fetus and at certain ages of development it looks startlingly human. So what? We knew it would eventually look human if it came out looking like a human. So what if it feels pain. Cows feel pain too but we still grind them into hamburgers every day.

The one thing I can agree with you on is that we are eventually going to be able to get fetuses out and alive at very early ages. That's amazing and will play a major role in ending abortions. Having a fetus outside the womb and living still doesn't necessitate that it's a human being though.

[bbyrd009]

good point, on the contraception.

[coadie]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

There are gods that demand child sacrifices... so it's not a total shock to me the abortion butchers might pray.

I have heard of pastors committing adultery praying for blessing and protection when with their mistress.

I have also heard of adulterors saying the affair was a special gift from God.

I have heard of atheists praying during a pop quize in school. (I thought prayer in schools was verbotten)

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Abortion is a tragic reality. At the end of the day the question is... If a woman decides she doesn't want to carry her pregnancy to term, who ultimately has the authority to make the choice to abort or not? Government or the pregnant woman.

Think about it... if a pregnant woman wanted an abortion and the government said "no", the government has essentially seized her body legally and is forcing her to give birth. This makes pregnant women wards of the state. While I HATE abortion and I think it's a terrible tragedy... I'm not so sure that government is the answer. Someone has to ulitmately have the final say. Pro-choice people believe that choice should reside in the hands of individual women not state house bureaucrats.

Think about it... a doctor tells you and your significant other about a condition that could threaten the mother's life or render her infertile and states that terminating the pregnancy is an option. That's a very dark and painful moment. Do you want to have to have a board of doctors review your case and then appeal to a government official or judge for permission to perform the procedure... or do you believe that such a difficult and painful choice should reside between you, your wife, and your God?

I thought about it... and I still believe abortion is murder. I believe the penalty for killing should pretty much be the same five minutes before birth as it is five minutes after birth. (even though it might be argued killing a baby outside the womb is a bit less deviant... since, in the womb, it's mouth is prevented from screaming for help.)

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Neither does contraception but I'm sure you're okay with that.

Medicine does not answer the question of what is a human being. Medicine says look we can see the fetus and at certain ages of development it looks startlingly human. So what? We knew it would eventually look human if it came out looking like a human. So what if it feels pain. Cows feel pain too but we still grind them into hamburgers every day.

The one thing I can agree with you on is that we are eventually going to be able to get fetuses out and alive at very early ages. That's amazing and will play a major role in ending abortions. Having a fetus outside the womb and living still doesn't necessitate that it's a human being though.

Actually in my personal life I am not OK with contraception, much of which interfers with implantation rather than conception so it abortifacient. However I do not make other women's decisions in my work, not about contraception and not about abortion. I am a care provider, not a life coach. I simply see the lesser of many evils that need to be used in a world where there is a lot of unmarried, even promiscuious sex going on. It is the reality... and again I have no desire to force sinners into the Christian model- they are supposed to be doing exactly what they are doing. They can have contraception, they can have abortions, heck, they can kill the store clerk down the street when they rob him.... but I won't support laws that make it legal to do so and I do support laws that make it illegal.