Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Hoovie,

Is an unborn baby human?

Yes indeed! There is no great metamorphosis that occurs at birth.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

I am as skeptical of government as most. While it's imperfect in many aspects, it is what we have received, and what we have to work with - not to mention ordained by God... as they stand for righteousness.

Sure there has to be an investigation. Of course, "doctors and/or government bureaucrats" will be involved - not unlike infanticide cases being pursued now. Sure the evidence could become muddled. Infants are small and their bodies easily dismembered and discarded...

When it comes to elective abortion of a viable fetus, counsel and prayer from a pastor should be occurring on death row. For a non viable fetus the charge might be reduced to second degree... IDK

Hoovie... if you were kidnapped by a mad scientist and impregnated with a human fetus and doctors informed you that should you carry the fetus to term you might loose your life or suffer massive kidney and liver damage, rendering you unable to live without continued treatments throughout your entire life... or you could terminate the pregnancy to save your body the shock it might endure, including possible death. Would you rather that decision (whatever that might be) to be yours alone? Or the decision of government bureaucrats and officials?

If doctors said that you'd be just fine to carry the child to term... or you could terminate the pregnancy. Would you rather that decision (whatever that might be) to be yours alone? Or the decision of government bureaucrats and officials?

I vote... mine. If I wanted to terminate that pregnancy, it's entirely my choice. It's my body, my health (mental and physical), my sovereign freedom with regards to my person. Now, you and a million people might disagree with me if I chose to terminate the pregnancy. However, it would still be my choice alone.

One might say it's human. So is a person who breaks into your home. So is a soldier on the battlefield. So were the civilians of Nagasaki and Hiroshima. So is the person who would be on death row being executed. So is the loved on on life-support with little to no hope of recovery. The point is... there are valid circumstances wherein the taking of a human life (even innocent human life) is indeed legal. Seeing that women are citizens of the United States with sovereign power over their own persons, and they serve as the maternal host of their child, they hold the power of life and death in their hands. I trust that decision being up to them far more than I trust empowering the governmen to prohibit or force abortion.

[Aquila]

What I find troubling here is that many are talking about pulling out the torches and pitchforks to one day prosecute women who procure abortions.

However, NOBODY has even voiced concern over those circumstances and situations that often cause a woman to consider abortion. If you'd spend millions of dollars of tax payer dollars to prosecute a woman who procured an abortion (many might already be mothers and might even be from upscale suburbia), why not spend millions of tax payer dollars providing child care on state college campuses? Why not extend SCHIP and programs that help uninsured pregnant women? Why not extend benefits to their children?

It sounds to me that many here would have the government essentially seize a woman's body, deem her a ward of the state, and force every pregnanty woman to give birth regardless of their will to do so or not. And after that... pat her on the back and say, "Good luck."

It's stupid. Also, there are those who value human life so much they'd turn a pregnant woman into a "breeder" for the rightwing establishment through the power of government... and if she aborted... execute her. That isn't valuing human life.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Yes indeed! There is no great metamorphosis that occurs at birth.

Thank you Hoovie. I am glad to know that T2W and I are not the only ones who believe the unborn is human. I am sure that there are others here who do believe the same thing, but few are coming forth to declare it.

Perhaps everybody here has been here and done that before with the frog and nobody has gotten through to him. IDK frog is jumping off into genetic manipulation now.

[Aquila]

I found this interesting....

God had a procedure in the OT for unfaithful women that would force an abortion if she were to have become pregnant by any man other than her husband.

Consider...

Numbers 5:11-31
Protecting Marital Faithfulness

11 And the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Give the following instructions to the people of Israel.

“Suppose a man’s wife goes astray, and she is unfaithful to her husband 13 and has sex with another man, but neither her husband nor anyone else knows about it. She has defiled herself, even though there was no witness and she was not caught in the act. 14 If her husband becomes jealous and is suspicious of his wife and needs to know whether or not she has defiled herself, 15 the husband must bring his wife to the priest. He must also bring an offering of two quarts of barley flour to be presented on her behalf. Do not mix it with olive oil or frankincense, for it is a jealousy offering—an offering to prove whether or not she is guilty.

16 “The priest will then present her to stand trial before the Lord. 17 He must take some holy water in a clay jar and pour into it dust he has taken from the Tabernacle floor. 18 When the priest has presented the woman before the Lord, he must unbind her hair and place in her hands the offering of proof—the jealousy offering to determine whether her husband’s suspicions are justified. The priest will stand before her, holding the jar of bitter water that brings a curse to those who are guilty. 19 The priest will then put the woman under oath and say to her, ‘If no other man has had sex with you, and you have not gone astray and defiled yourself while under your husband’s authority, may you be immune from the effects of this bitter water that brings on the curse. 20 But if you have gone astray by being unfaithful to your husband, and have defiled yourself by having sex with another man—’

21 “At this point the priest must put the woman under oath by saying, ‘May the people know that the Lord’s curse is upon you when he makes you infertile, causing your womb to shrivel and your abdomen to swell. 22 Now may this water that brings the curse enter your body and cause your abdomen to swell and your womb to shrivel.’ And the woman will be required to say, ‘Yes, let it be so.’ 23 And the priest will write these curses on a piece of leather and wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He will make the woman drink the bitter water that brings on the curse. When the water enters her body, it will cause bitter suffering if she is guilty.

25 “The priest will take the jealousy offering from the woman’s hand, lift it up before the Lord, and carry it to the altar. 26 He will take a handful of the flour as a token portion and burn it on the altar, and he will require the woman to drink the water. 27 If she has defiled herself by being unfaithful to her husband, the water that brings on the curse will cause bitter suffering. Her abdomen will swell and her womb will shrink, and her name will become a curse among her people. 28 But if she has not defiled herself and is pure, then she will be unharmed and will still be able to have children.

29 “This is the ritual law for dealing with suspicion. If a woman goes astray and defiles herself while under her husband’s authority, 30 or if a man becomes jealous and is suspicious that his wife has been unfaithful, the husband must present his wife before the Lord, and the priest will apply this entire ritual law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any guilt in this matter, but his wife will be held accountable for her sin.”

Consider this... no consideration is given for the potential presence of any life that might be in her womb as a result of her unfaithful union with another man. Instead... the woman's womb is to shrivel and shrink, pregnant or not. Such an action would not only render her barren but it would also induce a miscarriage (abortion) of any seed conceived in sin.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Thank you Hoovie. I am glad to know that T2W and I are not the only ones who believe the unborn is human. I am sure that there are others here who do believe the same thing, but few are coming forth to declare it.

Perhaps everybody here has been here and done that before with the frog and nobody has gotten through to him. IDK frog is jumping off into genetic manipulation now.

Of course an unborn child is human. But that really only establishes a moral nuance to the discussion. However, for the sake of discussion... So is a person who breaks into your home. So is a soldier on the battlefield. So were the civilians of Nagasaki and Hiroshima. So is the person who would be on death row being executed. So is the loved one on life-support with little to no hope of recovery. The point is... there are valid circumstances wherein the taking of a human life (even innocent human life) is indeed legal.

Seeing that women are the maternal host of their child, and seeing that they are sovereign individuals with authority over their own persons, the power of life and death is in their hands. The courts have essentially ruled that a woman therefore has a sovereign right over the life in her womb.

[Aquila]

I didn't want to bring up the above passage from Numbers 5 because it is so disturbing to me. The implication is that any child conceived in sin doesn't have an inherent right to live according to the Law of Moses. In fact, this is why living children conceived in sin were regarded as being of lower class in ancient Israel. The primary reason was inherentance of property and wealth. To sire a child from a man other than one's husband, especially if it were the first born, would essentially hijack the family inheritance from the lawful bloodline. A child conceived in sin was a threat to the family's continued prosperity.

That would mean that, according to the Law of Moses, only children conceived in the bonds of holy wedlock inherently have the right to live.

Now, to me, that's disturbing.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I found this interesting....

God had a procedure in the OT for unfaithful women that would force an abortion if she were to have become pregnant by any man other than her husband.

Consider...

Numbers 5:11-31
Protecting Marital Faithfulness

11 And the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Give the following instructions to the people of Israel.

“Suppose a man’s wife goes astray, and she is unfaithful to her husband 13 and has sex with another man, but neither her husband nor anyone else knows about it. She has defiled herself, even though there was no witness and she was not caught in the act. 14 If her husband becomes jealous and is suspicious of his wife and needs to know whether or not she has defiled herself, 15 the husband must bring his wife to the priest. He must also bring an offering of two quarts of barley flour to be presented on her behalf. Do not mix it with olive oil or frankincense, for it is a jealousy offering—an offering to prove whether or not she is guilty.

16 “The priest will then present her to stand trial before the Lord. 17 He must take some holy water in a clay jar and pour into it dust he has taken from the Tabernacle floor. 18 When the priest has presented the woman before the Lord, he must unbind her hair and place in her hands the offering of proof—the jealousy offering to determine whether her husband’s suspicions are justified. The priest will stand before her, holding the jar of bitter water that brings a curse to those who are guilty. 19 The priest will then put the woman under oath and say to her, ‘If no other man has had sex with you, and you have not gone astray and defiled yourself while under your husband’s authority, may you be immune from the effects of this bitter water that brings on the curse. 20 But if you have gone astray by being unfaithful to your husband, and have defiled yourself by having sex with another man—’

21 “At this point the priest must put the woman under oath by saying, ‘May the people know that the Lord’s curse is upon you when he makes you infertile, causing your womb to shrivel and your abdomen to swell. 22 Now may this water that brings the curse enter your body and cause your abdomen to swell and your womb to shrivel.’ And the woman will be required to say, ‘Yes, let it be so.’ 23 And the priest will write these curses on a piece of leather and wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He will make the woman drink the bitter water that brings on the curse. When the water enters her body, it will cause bitter suffering if she is guilty.

25 “The priest will take the jealousy offering from the woman’s hand, lift it up before the Lord, and carry it to the altar. 26 He will take a handful of the flour as a token portion and burn it on the altar, and he will require the woman to drink the water. 27 If she has defiled herself by being unfaithful to her husband, the water that brings on the curse will cause bitter suffering. Her abdomen will swell and her womb will shrink, and her name will become a curse among her people. 28 But if she has not defiled herself and is pure, then she will be unharmed and will still be able to have children.

29 “This is the ritual law for dealing with suspicion. If a woman goes astray and defiles herself while under her husband’s authority, 30 or if a man becomes jealous and is suspicious that his wife has been unfaithful, the husband must present his wife before the Lord, and the priest will apply this entire ritual law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any guilt in this matter, but his wife will be held accountable for her sin.”

Consider this... no consideration is given for the potential presence of any life that might be in her womb as a result of her unfaithful union with another man. Instead... the woman's womb is to shrivel and shrink, pregnant or not. Such an action would not only render her barren but it would also induce a miscarriage (abortion) of any seed conceived in sin.

You didn't...

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

You didn't...

Nope, I didn't make that up... that's in the Bible. It's one of the darkest passages in the Law of Moses in my opinion. Can you find any consideration given for a woman who might be pregnant as a result of her unfaithfulness in this passage? I can't. Her womb was to shrivel and she be left barren without any regards for the possiblity that she might be carrying a child from the unfaithful union. No exceptions are given.

This not only demonstrates how serious unfaithfulness was to one's husband in ancient Israel, but it also illustrates God's abhorrance towards children conceived from sinful unions under the Old Covenant. They had no right to live.

Can you see a woman who has been unfaithful and has perhaps missed two or three periods? Imagine her husband becomes suspecious of her behavior (perhaps he's been at war or perhaps traveling with the herds to pasture). So he brings her to the priest and this procedure is performed. In the firelight of the torches in the tabernacle you can see her bowed over, screaming, weeping, and bleeding as her womb convulses and shrivels in her body. Her husband and the priest stand silently watching the judgment of God that is being unleashed upon her. From this day forward she will be barren. And any seed conceived in her as a result of her unfaithful union has now hereby been terminated.

Again, that is very disturbing to me.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Aquila

But don't you understand the risks by expanding governmental power here in the US? If we grant the government the power to force women not to abort... the government might eventually use said power to force women to abort. So far, it's best to leave the government out of the equation altogether, placing the free power of choice upon individual citizens. This ensures that the citizens remain free and the government remains restricted on the issue.

Aquila, I share your enthusiasm about keeping the government out of our private lives. I understand your love of freedom. You went into the army to help preserve that freedom.

The problem here is that prochoice proponents made it a medical issue for convenience abortions. For scenarios such as you described, the woman and doctor has, in the past, always made those decisions without interference from anybody. Now we have runaway unfettered slaughter of many innocents.

People have abused their power over life and death of their babies.

I can only wonder what God is thinking about of this. Do we have the right to take any life for any reason? If Able's blood cried up from the ground to God, how much more does God hear from 50,000,000 innocents?