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  #361  
Old 04-20-2012, 01:58 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

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Originally Posted by AreYouReady? View Post
You rely on google? LOL.

Ok. That is your source. Now I know where you are coming from.
AYR...

It's a pretty established fact. Do your homework on Hebrew euphemisms.
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  #362  
Old 04-20-2012, 03:54 PM
AreYouReady? AreYouReady? is offline
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Re: Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
Yeah... and if 3,000 years from now someone uses an "English Stronger Concordance" to interpret a letter I wrote about gasoline costing, "an arm and a leg", they'd be convinced that I bartered for gasoline with body parts... according to your logic. LOL
So...you must consider your writings to be equal with scripture?

A professional Strong's Concordance doesn't deal with euphemisms. It deals strictly with words and translations.

I sure hope you don't teach people some of the stuff you write on here.
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  #363  
Old 04-20-2012, 06:54 PM
J4Truth J4Truth is offline
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Re: Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AreYouReady? View Post
So...you must consider your writings to be equal with scripture?

A professional Strong's Concordance doesn't deal with euphemisms. It deals strictly with words and translations.

I sure hope you don't teach people some of the stuff you write on here.
Actually according to Strongs
Quote:
H3409
ירך
yârêk
yaw-rake'
From an unused root meaning to be soft; the thigh (from its fleshy softness); by euphemism the generative parts; figuratively a shank, flank, side: - X body, loins, shaft, side, thigh.
And the mention of loins gives more weight to thigh possibly also being genitalia.

edit: P.S. Just adding I see the scripture being more of a miscarriage than an abortion. And regardless of the procedure the power of the curse is all God wherein if she's guilty of adultery she miscarries the child and God takes them and if she's not guilty nothing happens. And if God takes the life of an unwanted/undesired child and that child don't go to hell, but to heaven, wrong? I don't believe so.

Last edited by J4Truth; 04-20-2012 at 07:11 PM.
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  #364  
Old 04-20-2012, 08:20 PM
AreYouReady? AreYouReady? is offline
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Re: Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

The issue I take with the use of these scriptures is that Aquila and Frog are going back into the OT to justify today's abortion, inferring that if God used it back in those days, abortion should be ok today in certain cases. These scriptures are not implications that God endorses or practiced abortion because He instituted this law of jealousy for adultery.

English definition of Euphemism: mild or indirect word or expression substituted for one considered to be too harsh or blunt when referring to something unpleasant or embarrassing: The opposite of dysphemism.

Why would the translators use the word "thigh" in euphemism in the book of Numbers, when they expressly translated the word "womb" for a female reproductive organ in all the rest of the OT verses such as Genesis 25:23, 25:24, 29:31, 30:2, 30:22, 38:27, 49:25. Exodus, Numbers, Deuterotomy, Judges, Ruth, I Samuel, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea and in many books of the NT. The term "womb" is mentioned in both the OT and NT over 70 times. So why would the word "womb" be offensive or delicate just in the Numbers scriptures? Why would they translate it by euphemism just in these verses and not in the other verses?

If this is true for Numbers, then the same should be true for Genesis 24:2, 24:9, 32:25, 32:31, 32:32, 47:29 and all the other scriptures I posted earlier containing the word "thigh", which comes from Strong's number 3409. One can only conclude that the translators translated "thigh" accurately in the verse in Numbers, otherwise, they would have placed the word "womb" to give a clear and concise description of the law of jealousy.

These scriptures are taken out of the context from which they are written and I am appalled that some people would implicate that God would cause a priest to be a part of such nonsense. We have our example of what God did in cases of adultery by what happened with King David and Bathsheba's baby. God expressly told King David that the baby would not live after birth, not from a woman's abdomen swelling and her womb shriveling up.

He is God and He is just, even to babies conceived in sin.

Sick stuff.



Now lets take the issue Frog is saying that babies in the womb are not human. He has rejected Jeremiah 1:5, calling the worse prooftexting example.

I however, maintain that Jeremiah is a worthy scripture to describe a child in the womb being human.

Then there is others...as below.


21 And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.
22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
24 ¶And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb.
(Genesis 25:21-24)


For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.
(Judges 13:5)


Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?
(Job 31:15)


I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
(Psalms 22:10)



As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.
(Ecclesiastes 11:5)


Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.
(Isaiah 44:2)



Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
(Isaiah 49:1)


Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
(Jeremiah 1:5)


And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

(Luke 1:31)


And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

(Luke 1:41)

And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

(Luke 1:42)



All these scriptures are examples of human babies live in the womb.
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  #365  
Old 04-20-2012, 08:24 PM
AreYouReady? AreYouReady? is offline
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Re: Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

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Originally Posted by J4Truth View Post
And the mention of loins gives more weight to thigh possibly also being genitalia.

edit: P.S. Just adding I see the scripture being more of a miscarriage than an abortion. And regardless of the procedure the power of the curse is all God wherein if she's guilty of adultery she miscarries the child and God takes them and if she's not guilty nothing happens. And if God takes the life of an unwanted/undesired child and that child don't go to hell, but to heaven, wrong? I don't believe so.
I agree with this premise.
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  #366  
Old 04-21-2012, 06:59 AM
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jfrog jfrog is offline
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Re: Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

Quote:
Originally Posted by J4Truth View Post
Actually according to Strongs

Quote:
H3409
ירך
yârêk
yaw-rake'
From an unused root meaning to be soft; the thigh (from its fleshy softness); by euphemism the generative parts; figuratively a shank, flank, side: - X body, loins, shaft, side, thigh.
And the mention of loins gives more weight to thigh possibly also being genitalia.

edit: P.S. Just adding I see the scripture being more of a miscarriage than an abortion. And regardless of the procedure the power of the curse is all God wherein if she's guilty of adultery she miscarries the child and God takes them and if she's not guilty nothing happens. And if God takes the life of an unwanted/undesired child and that child don't go to hell, but to heaven, wrong? I don't believe so.
Why does everyone gloss over the fact that strongs says it can mean "generative parts"? Do yall even realize what that phrase means? Let me help you.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/generative
generative -
1. Having the ability to originate, produce, or procreate.
2. Of or relating to the production of offspring.

So when STRONG'S says "generative parts" what is it talking about? It's talking about the parts that relate to the production of offspring.
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  #367  
Old 04-21-2012, 08:31 AM
bbyrd009 bbyrd009 is offline
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Re: Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

I'm still on a fence here, leaning their way, tho--I note the "can," which doesn't mean "will." I'd like to suggest you guys maybe bring in some alt translations, wherein I see some possible clarity there. I think it discusses miscarriage.
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  #368  
Old 04-21-2012, 09:47 AM
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jfrog jfrog is offline
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Re: Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

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Originally Posted by bbyrd009 View Post
I'm still on a fence here, leaning their way, tho--I note the "can," which doesn't mean "will." I'd like to suggest you guys maybe bring in some alt translations, wherein I see some possible clarity there. I think it discusses miscarriage.
Ugh... now they are going to ignore their original claim that "thigh" could not mean "private parts" and start saying that even though it can mean this it doesn't.
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  #369  
Old 04-21-2012, 09:50 AM
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jfrog jfrog is offline
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Re: Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

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Originally Posted by AreYouReady? View Post
So...you must consider your writings to be equal with scripture?

A professional Strong's Concordance doesn't deal with euphemisms. It deals strictly with words and translations.

I sure hope you don't teach people some of the stuff you write on here.

Strong's

Quote:
H3409
ירך
yârêk
yaw-rake'
From an unused root meaning to be soft; the thigh (from its fleshy softness); by euphemism the generative parts; figuratively a shank, flank, side: - X body, loins, shaft, side, thigh.
Strong's doesn't deal with euphemisms? Really?
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  #370  
Old 04-21-2012, 11:10 AM
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jfrog jfrog is offline
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Re: Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

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Originally Posted by AreYouReady? View Post
Frog, you have hopelessly mangled and twisted this thread into some kind of point you are trying to make. Not sure what that is anymore.
The main thrust of every argument I have presented is that abortion is not murder. From a look at history to a look at whether a newly conceieved fetus is a person to a look at what the scriptures tell us about abortion, my arguments have been related to showing that abortion is not murder.

Quote:
Most things you post is in a questionable manner. What if ....
Hypotheticals are very useful tools and it would be wrong to limit any discourse to not including them.

Quote:
You have not given one shred of evidence that a fetus is not human
.
Absolute undeniable proof? Definetely not. But I have given alot of evidence. Not to mention there are two ways to argue that a fetus is not a human being at conception. One is give evidence that it is not a human being at conception and the other is to assume that it is a human being at conception and find a contradiction.

I typically approach the question from this proof by contradiction framework and so while you might not regard my remarks as evidence in the traditional sense my comments do form a framework from which I attempt to prove that an unborn is not a human being at conception. Some of my points on this front have been:
1. Twins (Two persons with the same DNA)
2. Genetic Chimerras (One person with two different sets of DNA)
3. Skin cells have human DNA but they are not human beings
4. When ensoulment happens and its relationship to twins and genetic chimerras.
5. Numbers 5 showing that forced loss of life for an unborn in the case of adultery was biblically acceptable.

I don't approach the question from the traditional front as much because the question of what properties make something a human being is not a question for which we have a consensus and so it's almost impossible to give traditional evidence that a fetus is a human being with this taken into consideration. My points on this front have been:
1. There are a number of defining moments in the early stages of development for an unborn any of which we could define that it begins to be a human being at that point.

I have also attacked many counter arguments you have proposed and that in itself is a another form of evidence.

Quote:
You are demanding facts and arguing scriptures, yet you give no credible evidence for your belief.Not one..
See above

Quote:
.but yet you argue and do not even give convincing argument for one issue before you start on another.
I jump around because I have a multitude of evidence and don't want to get too bogged down on one very contentuous issue when I can make my point in other ways. What issues should I revisit?

Quote:
No scripture given to you is going to satisfy you unless it agrees with your stance. And that is what Aquila gave to you. Something to feed on that is not even remotely linked to the abortion issue we have today.
Actually I done knew of Aquila's scripture and just hadn't gotten to bringing it up before he did

I'm curious as to why you say it's not linked to the abortion issue today. The abortion issue has one primary concern, when does human life begin?

So when we are presented with a scripture where a procedure designed for women who are extremely likely to be pregnant and that when performed on such a woman the procedure would end the life of her unborn child, we must ask ourselves what scriptural insight this gives us on the question of when life begins. I've heard arguments that we can't talk about this verse in such a context because not every woman who underwent that procedure would be pregnant but I've yet to hear one opinion about what this verse reveals to us when applied to a pregnant adulteress. That's quite telling to me...
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