Balance

[Hoovie]

Yes I agree. The threshold is different for individuals.

Personally, I don't find religious systems overly enticing in it'self. Therefore, I really can't get too excited about my own "activity level" in the same.

[The Lemon]

Thank you all for your input...it is most valuable to me! I realize this topic can be sticky, if for no other reason then the fact that we are all individuals and as Miss Bratt and Michael pointed out, each person has a different tolerance level. In light of those comments, let me say that this objective outlook makes total sense, as long as any one individual has the freedom to make such choices concerning commitment(s).

I don't want this to veer off into a negative tangent, but there are times where folks are required to be involved in certain things, and this is especially true in cases where someone holds a ministerial position. So, while there certainly is a freedom to choose, there can be obvious concequences for choosing "no'. IMHO it is wrong for any pastor / leader to limit / restrict / silence the influence of other leaders in the assembly simply because they do not meet the personal requirements of the "Cheif". Now, I am not advocating this in light of doctrine, but simply personal preference, or time allocation...at any rate.

These conversations can tend to be circular since there is much opinion as well as background and as has been said, personality that is involved in decision making processes. I do appreciate the great input and spirit that has been demonstrated in this thread!

[bbyrd009]

Ordering Your Private World, Gordon MacDonald, will speak to this. A pastor, connected with Man in the Mirror, I've just started it, but right up this alley.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

Thank you all for your input...it is most valuable to me! I realize this topic can be sticky, if for no other reason then the fact that we are all individuals and as Miss Bratt and Michael pointed out, each person has a different tolerance level. In light of those comments, let me say that this objective outlook makes total sense, as long as any one individual has the freedom to make such choices concerning commitment(s).

I don't want this to veer off into a negative tangent, but there are times where folks are required to be involved in certain things, and this is especially true in cases where someone holds a ministerial position. So, while there certainly is a freedom to choose, there can be obvious concequences for choosing "no'. IMHO it is wrong for any pastor / leader to limit / restrict / silence the influence of other leaders in the assembly simply because they do not meet the personal requirements of the "Cheif". Now, I am not advocating this in light of doctrine, but simply personal preference, or time allocation...at any rate.

These conversations can tend to be circular since there is much opinion as well as background and as has been said, personality that is involved in decision making processes. I do appreciate the great input and spirit that has been demonstrated in this thread!

Great point, Lemon........and, to play Devil's Advocate for a minute, having been a pastor in a past life, there is an expectation that people be faithful to their commitments. You can't build a church/program/outreach strategy/music department/fill in the blank, with people who show up sporadically.

So, I get that there will be some type of consequence if a person in leadership is consistently inconsistent! Part of the expectation of my employer is that I will show up to work every single day, unless I have scheduled vacation time, or if I'm sick - and then my boss expects early communication to let him know my status.

However, having said that, when a person says to the leader UP FRONT, "I'm sorry, I cannot be involved in this activity due to other commitments" the leader needs to honor that honesty and not "black ball" that member. I've seen that happen too many times. Then what happens is that the member will go ahead and accept the position out of guilt, but they will be resentful the entire time.

So, to the original point of the thread, there must be balance. And there must be complete and total honesty on the behalf of both parties up front, and hopefully any guilt issues, misunderstandings, etc. can be headed off at the pass.

[The Lemon]

Michael,

I get what you are saying in terms of specific ministries requiring faithfullness in order to be effective, no problem there...which is one reason I loved Miss. Bratts post on the yearly commitment and then evaluating afterward.

The issue which to me is the central part of much of the teaching and theology, at least in Apostolic Pentecostal circles is that often times levels of involvement are used in much the same way as dress standards, as a way to measure ones spirituality, relationship with Christ, and in extreme cases, someones very salvation.

The other side issue is that someone may have a musical talent, but scheduling conflicts at home or work etc. prohibit making alot of practices etc. - should that person not be "allowed" to use the talent God gave them because of the perception of the leadership that they can't be "faithful" to enough practices??

We are living is a VERY busy world, and how much restriction should be put on folks before we will let them minister to the Lord and others? I can't tell you how many times I have looked at the "To Do" list in church, with all the ministries trying to be built, sustained, and seucessful and asked two huge questions:

1. What are we REALLY trying to build?

2. Is this ALL that living for God consists of? Program afer program, event after event and so on.

Oftentimes when vision is cast and the frenzy begins as excitement builds, sooner or later it crashes, then we need a revival, and the cycle begins all over again, and for what? Is this really what living and worshipping God is all about?? I can't help but feel like it is like a caged bird who should just be happy that I walk over and feed him and talk to him each day, even though his world consists of restriction and bars that I am trying to convince the bird are for his safety and best interest.

Anyway, let me get off my soapbox...

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

Michael,

I get what you are saying in terms of specific ministries requiring faithfullness in order to be effective, no problem there...which is one reason I loved Miss. Bratts post on the yearly commitment and then evaluating afterward.

The issue which to me is the central part of much of the teaching and theology, at least in Apostolic Pentecostal circles is that often times levels of involvement are used in much the same way as dress standards, as a way to measure ones spirituality, relationship with Christ, and in extreme cases, someones very salvation.

The other side issue is that someone may have a musical talent, but scheduling conflicts at home or work etc. prohibit making alot of practices etc. - should that person not be "allowed" to use the talent God gave them because of the perception of the leadership that they can't be "faithful" to enough practices??

We are living is a VERY busy world, and how much restriction should be put on folks before we will let them minister to the Lord and others? I can't tell you how many times I have looked at the "To Do" list in church, with all the ministries trying to be built, sustained, and seucessful and asked two huge questions:

1. What are we REALLY trying to build?

2. Is this ALL that living for God consists of? Program afer program, event after event and so on.

Oftentimes when vision is cast and the frenzy begins as excitement builds, sooner or later it crashes, then we need a revival, and the cycle begins all over again, and for what? Is this really what living and worshipping God is all about?? I can't help but feel like it is like a caged bird who should just be happy that I walk over and feed him and talk to him each day, even though his world consists of restriction and bars that I am trying to convince the bird are for his safety and best interest.

Anyway, let me get off my soapbox...

Excellent points, and excellent dialogue!

You are preaching to the choir here, my friend, no pun intended, lol!

My earlier post was more centered around the level of commitment once a person agrees to support a particular ministry or cause, but you've gotten even closer to the pin with this question - what are we really trying to build??? Is it of God? Is it in line with the vision of the Bible?

And your description of the "cycle" is dead on! Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

I do understand what you're saying about the music, as well, and I suppose that since I'm a musician, I may see it slightly differently......I'm a huge advocate of rehearsals, in fact, in the blues band I'm in right now, we rehearse twice a week, for three hours each time. And we play at least twice a month on weekends, sometimes three....so, it's a huge commitment. And what makes it work is the dedication of all the members.

I wouldn't take it to that extreme in a church, but I guess I still feel like there should be some pursuit of excellence, even in a church setting, and oftentimes when people just show up to play music, with no prior rehearsal, there is an unstructured mess that tends to make people nervous, or distracted, instead of aiding and abetting the flow of worship. But, again, that's from a musician's standpoint, I am probably biased!

Either way, I laud you for taking on this tough topic and allowing me to participate!

[The Lemon]

Michael,

This has been awesome!! And just so you know, I too am a musician - I play drums as well as piano. And I totally understand the need for the pursuance of excellence, and this should always be the goal. Life does happen however, and in those seasons it may not be possible for a variety of reasons to be at the amount of rehersals one should - that said, I don't believe it is my job or anyone else's to take the talent away, bury it in the sand and not allow for some leeway, but instead sit them down until they can be "committed".

At any rate, I think that the ideas that are birthed from zeal and from a love for God and people are great, but can very easily become unrealistic when trying to apply them in all cases and in all scenario's. Afterall, Salvation and God are eternity issues, my career and hobbies are not. I must work in order to eat, my job is not my refuge, nor is it who I am as a human being...it is what I do and what I contribute to survive and provide for my family.

To me, church should be a sanctuary from the pressure and not a steam pressure cooker itself. Most of my practice time musically is done on my own, simply because my current church is almost an hour away from my home. Anyway, I just observe, not
saying any of these discussions are a matter of right or wrong or salvation, just observing what I have not only seen, but experienced over a 20-year span.

I loveto get the input of others in these area's. I get to see it differently then from the pirch I sit on in my "cage".

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

Michael,

This has been awesome!! And just so you know, I too am a musician - I play drums as well as piano. And I totally understand the need for the pursuance of excellence, and this should always be the goal. Life does happen however, and in those seasons it may not be possible for a variety of reasons to be at the amount of rehersals one should - that said, I don't believe it is my job or anyone else's to take the talent away, bury it in the sand and not allow for some leeway, but instead sit them down until they can be "committed".

At any rate, I think that the ideas that are birthed from zeal and from a love for God and people are great, but can very easily become unrealistic when trying to apply them in all cases and in all scenario's. Afterall, Salvation and God are eternity issues, my career and hobbies are not. I must work in order to eat, my job is not my refuge, nor is it who I am as a human being...it is what I do and what I contribute to survive and provide for my family.

To me, church should be a sanctuary from the pressure and not a steam pressure cooker itself. Most of my practice time musically is done on my own, simply because my current church is almost an hour away from my home. Anyway, I just observe, not
saying any of these discussions are a matter of right or wrong or salvation, just observing what I have not only seen, but experienced over a 20-year span.

I loveto get the input of others in these area's. I get to see it differently then from the pirch I sit on in my "cage".

You are right on target, all very valid points.

I spent most of my life in this scenario, and must admit, as a pastor I probably held unrealistic expecations of people. One of the things that many full time pastors forget, present company included, is that while the "church" is their job, it's not everyone else's. So, it's easy for the leader to have a great vision, and expect that everyone else will support it full-time, and put as much time and effort as the pastor does - and in reality, that's just not possible.

It doesn't make it any easier when you go to conferences, and see large churches with multiple full time staff members, and all the awesome things those churches are doing....and come home and try and replicate it in the local assembly.

Bottom line - do what you know in your heart is right, and what you can commit to, and NEVER let it get in the way of your family.

God created the family LONG before He created the church!

[Nitehawk013]

I am an elder, I run our new converts program, I teach one Sunday morning a onth usually, I sing in the choir once a month and I play softball. I also clean the church once a month. That is really all I desire to be involved in my church to be honest. Some people feel that unless they are involved in everythign and at every single event, then they are backsliden.

Unfortunately, many Pastors reinforce that idea with statements about how a real Christian will be at church whenever the doors are open and that they ought to put the church ahead of everything else in their life.

Im nearly 35. I understand that for those who are not grounded in the faith...they probably do need to be involved in everythign under the sun in order to stay in church. I am mature enough that I don't need to be in everything in order to remain in church. I won't be backsliding if I choose not to do VBS or a choir trip. I won't lose my soul by saying it is more important to spend time with my family than to get involved in yet another program or event.

Balance is great. Th ependulum is a reality too. IMO the priority should always be FAMILY over church though. If I lose my family due to neglect by being too involved in church...then it wasn't worth it.

[bbyrd009]

The last line is troubling to me (in both of the above posts), but not in this context, I guess.
Just read about the Pastor's "cage," in the book above, hmm.