Creflo Dollar

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

Actually, punishment says you did something wrong, that shouldn't have been done, and now you will pay the price.

Physical punshment mixed with discipline and teaching has done just great at producing decent humans for generations. Seems pretty clear to me that once physical punishment was taken away kids started turning into the disrespectful dirtbags we see all over the place today.

That's because many parents have very little understanding of raising children, physical punishment is the very lowest level of parental instruction.

Children can be directed and disciplined without physical beatings.

My own father used physical punishment, and with seven boys and four girls it was effective, because his love for us was apparent. And it was always done, at least by the time I was born, in the context of God's love.

However, it did not cultivate a close relationship with my father. He and I never were able to communicate in depth. While I loved him and I knew he loved me, and we showed it with hugs and respect, communication between us was limited. And that is my greatest regret.

This was fairly consistant with my parents generation, due to their own hertiage, so I don't fault my father, and I respect him and mom deeply. They lived what they believed, and they cared for their eleven children to the very best of their ability. God's grace in this type of context is bountiful. So, I credit their love for God and for their children as the most important factors not the physical punishment. There is very little grace when there is falsehood and anger in the home, with parents declaring one thing and living quite another. There was none of that in our home.

My responsibility is to grow on the foundation given me by God and my parents, not to just accept what they did as perfect. None of us have arrived, God is calling us to lead on!!!

[Cindy]

Choking or throwing a person down the stairs is done by someone without control. I too am not sure if he was choking his daughter. But if they were on the floor wrestling around, they were BOTH out of control.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Regardless of their faults, my brother is a better man today.

I don't think Pastor Dollar choked his daughter.

According to the 911 call from his OLDER daughter (not the one who was choked), he did choke her. Marks on her neck supported the story.

In the church community, this kind of behavior is often tolerated; it shouldn't be. The ignorance should be educated and the abuse should be reported.

A lot of parents in past eras "disciplined" out of ignorance--they were never educated on a better way. I seriously doubt that your brother being thrown down a flight of stairs did anything wonderful for him. Your parents probably had a lot of good qualities that cancelled out those traumatic events--and those GOOD qualities were responsible for your brother becoming a better man.

[Nitehawk013]

Since all it takes apparently to be a good parent is to just talk to little junior or sissy, and to take away priviledges and give additional chores as a means of punishment, and one should just never have to "resort" to physical punishment, perhaps one of you parental geniuses can explain how to deal with a child, or a teenager, who simply refuses to do as they are told no matter what you take away from them or what chores you give them.

And I reject the idea that using physical discipline creates an atmosphere where there is no depth of the relationship. My son is basically attached to my hip. He always wants to be with daddy. We talk and play and spend plenty of time together. And guess what...when he crosses certain lines he gets his behind lit up or his mouth smacked. And once the situation calms a bit I explain why he got it and what is expected of him. I suppose when he gets older he will just be unable to talk to dad and won't have any depth in our relationship.

The new childrearing psycho-babble is a load of garbage.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

Since all it takes apparently to be a good parent is to just talk to little junior or sissy, and to take away priviledges and give additional chores as a means of punishment, and one should just never have to "resort" to physical punishment, perhaps one of you parental geniuses can explain how to deal with a child, or a teenager, who simply refuses to do as they are told no matter what you take away from them or what chores you give them.

And I reject the idea that using physical discipline creates an atmosphere where there is no depth of the relationship. My son is basically attached to my hip. He always wants to be with daddy. We talk and play and spend plenty of time together. And guess what...when he crosses certain lines he gets his behind lit up or his mouth smacked. And once the situation calms a bit I explain why he got it and what is expected of him. I suppose when he gets older he will just be unable to talk to dad and won't have any depth in our relationship.

The new childrearing psycho-babble is a load of garbage.

I don't get my child rearing ideas from "psycho-babble." I can't even remember the last book I read on child-rearing, besides "The Blessing." (A FANTASTIC Christian book, btw.)

Christian parents are supposed to reflect Christlikeness EVEN in how they parent their children. The fruit of the Spirit is, "love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness & temperance." I do NOT see how a Spirit filled Christian could choke or slap a child and still claim to be exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit.

Further, there are these scriptures to consider:

"Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger by the way you treat them. Rather, bring them up with the discipline and instruction that comes from the Lord." Ephesians 6:4, NLV

"Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money." I Timothy 3:1-3

If you can smack your son in the face and feel good about it, well, bully for you. I can't do that and then go to God with a clear conscience. I would feel like a heel and need to repent to my child and God. It's a lack of self-control and anger that leads to that kind of "discipline", IMO. I believe there can be times that call for corporal punishment, but only as a last resort, and those events should be few and far between. In keeping with NT principles, that "punishment" had better be executed with kindness, long-suffering and gentleness or the parent is out of line with scripture.

Some of the WORST kids I know--and those who have grown up and forsaken God and everything their parents ever taught them--are those who were raised with a lot of belt-whippings, slapping, yelling and heavy handed punishment. I have observed that treating children in this way inspires rebellion; not respect or obedience.

[Nitehawk013]

You didn't answer the question. That's ok. I will ask again. What does one do with all their gentle talk and handing out chores when the child still simply refuses to do as they are told? I suppose you give them more chores and words when they refuse to do the chores you already gave them?

You know I have a couple verses too. Written by Solomon, the man who had a gift of wisdom straight from God Himself. I tend to think that if he came to this conclusion WITH A GIFT of WISDOM form God that it is probably good to follow.

Proverbs 23:13-14 -Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Of course you don't jump to physical discipline immediately. Only an idiot would follow that plan. That doesn't mean you don't use the rod when you need to.

Some of the worst kids I know are the ones whose parents had some mamby pamby, limp approach to discipline centered around "time outs" and "losing priviledges" instead of wearing out their behinds when they acted up.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

You didn't answer the question. That's ok. I will ask again. What does one do with all their gentle talk and handing out chores when the child still simply refuses to do as they are told? I suppose you give them more chores and words when they refuse to do the chores you already gave them?

I can't answer it from experience. We have three children, ages 16, 14 & 9. We have yet to deal with rebellious behavior from any of them. They normally get into trouble for sassing or talking back, and that's about the worst we've dealt with. Grounding, praying, serious conversations, reading scripture--so far, seems to have dealt with every problem just fine. We spanked them a few times--mostly when they were little. Being a more experienced parent now, I think we could have made it through even those years without spanking if I had known what I know now.

You could chalk that up to luck and say we are just blessed with good kids, but IMO, being patient, consistent, kind and Christlike produces children who are more likely to be obedient and respectful. Even parents who spank should do it with kindness and only in certain circumstances. Children can sense whether or not you are acting out of love for them and genuine care for their wellbeing--even if the discipline is harsh. Our pastor advises that all discipline should be for the good of the child, and never because the parent is embarrassed or angry. I completely agree with him. I consider that to be very wise advice.

What I can't ever wrap my brain around is this: Why would any parent WANT to spank a child, if there's a gentler alternative that actually works?

You know I have a couple verses too. Written by Solomon, the man who had a gift of wisdom straight from God Himself. I tend to think that if he came to this conclusion WITH A GIFT of WISDOM form God that it is probably good to follow.

Proverbs 23:13-14 -Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

I'm not opposing those verses. However, they are OT and there are a lot of OT responses to sin and bad human behavior that we don't partake in. I'm not 100% opposed to corporal punishment, but I DO believe it should be reserved for deliberately rebellious behavior. Unfortunately, parents routinely use corporal punishment for childish or unwitting behavior, which I believe is damaging. Further, no one should ever INJURE their child or do anything that could potentially rob them of life (case in point: choking). That isn't spanking; that's abuse.

Of course you don't jump to physical discipline immediately. Only an idiot would follow that plan. That doesn't mean you don't use the rod when you need to.

Growing up in church, I've seen a LOT of idiots that follow that plan. Their FIRST response is to slap, hit or beat. And they are usually lauded by other likeminded parents.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I can't answer it from experience. We have three children, ages 16, 14 & 9. We have yet to deal with rebellious behavior from any of them. They normally get into trouble for sassing or talking back, and that's about the worst we've dealt with. Grounding, praying, serious conversations, reading scripture--so far, seems to have dealt with every problem just fine. We spanked them a few times--mostly when they were little. Being a more experienced parent now, I think we could have made it through even those years without spanking if I had known what I know now.

You could chalk that up to luck and say we are just blessed with good kids, but IMO, being patient, consistent, kind and Christlike produces children who are more likely to be obedient and respectful. Even parents who spank should do it with kindness and only in certain circumstances. Children can sense whether or not you are acting out of love for them and genuine care for their wellbeing--even if the discipline is harsh. Our pastor advises that all discipline should be for the good of the child, and never because the parent is embarrassed or angry. I completely agree with him. I consider that to be very wise advice.

What I can't ever wrap my brain around is this: Why would any parent WANT to spank a child, if there's a gentler alternative that actually works?



I'm not opposing those verses. However, they are OT and there are a lot of OT responses to sin and bad human behavior that we don't partake in. I'm not 100% opposed to corporal punishment, but I DO believe it should be reserved for deliberately rebellious behavior. Unfortunately, parents routinely use corporal punishment for childish or unwitting behavior, which I believe is damaging. Further, no one should ever INJURE their child or do anything that could potentially rob them of life (case in point: choking). That isn't spanking; that's abuse.



Growing up in church, I've seen a LOT of idiots that follow that plan. Their FIRST response is to slap, hit or beat. And they are usually lauded by other likeminded parents.

count your self lucky

i have 2 kids with adhd and one that may have bi-polar.. just step into my world

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

Since all it takes apparently to be a good parent is to just talk to little junior or sissy, and to take away priviledges and give additional chores as a means of punishment, and one should just never have to "resort" to physical punishment, perhaps one of you parental geniuses can explain how to deal with a child, or a teenager, who simply refuses to do as they are told no matter what you take away from them or what chores you give them.

And I reject the idea that using physical discipline creates an atmosphere where there is no depth of the relationship. My son is basically attached to my hip. He always wants to be with daddy. We talk and play and spend plenty of time together. And guess what...when he crosses certain lines he gets his behind lit up or his mouth smacked. And once the situation calms a bit I explain why he got it and what is expected of him. I suppose when he gets older he will just be unable to talk to dad and won't have any depth in our relationship.

The new childrearing psycho-babble is a load of garbage.

So you explain AFTER physical punishment? Do you think your overreact?

[Cindy]

Some abused children do actually cling to the abuser instead of the other parent, which they resent for not protecting them. So, they live a life with fear and resentment.
On the other hand parents that are to lenient, raise children with no boundaries. Either extreme causes problems.