Thoughts On The Paranormal

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Esaias,

Ontologically speaking a person is tripart, or a trichotomy (body, soul, spirit). The body (Gk. Soma) is the physical part of a person. The soul (psueche) is the seat of the thoughts and emotions (psyche). The spirit (pnuema) is one's "breath" or "living essence".

Essentially, the concept behind the theory I proposed is that one's body is buried in the grave. One's soul enters the afterlife. And one's spirit (in various situations) might linger.

Ancient Judaism believed that the immaterial part of a man could be divided up as follows:

1.Nephesh, related to natural instinct.
2.Ruach, related to emotion and morality.
3.Neshamah, related to intellect and the awareness of God.
4.Chaya, considered a part of God, as it were.
5.Yechidah, also termed the pintele Yid (the "essential [inner] Jew"). This aspect is essentially one with G‑d.

The rabbis explained how various elements of the soul experience different realities upon death.

Biblically speaking, a person IS A LIVING SOUL, produced by the union of body and spirit.

Biblically speaking, at death the body goes into the grave and the spirit goes back to God who gave it.

At death, your 'breath' (as opposed to 'spirit') goes into the atmosphere and dissipates.

Ancient Judaism also believed that demons clung to dishes, hence the need for 'special handwashing ceremonies' before eating.

The theory you proposed is an old one. It is the basic belief of Greek and other pre-Christian cultures. It was adopted (with some modifications) by the catholic churches. However, they would differ with you on the tripartite explanation, and would say man is a binary organism - composed of flesh and soul (or spirit, the two terms being in a certain sense interchangeable in their metaphysics). They believe the soul is the conscious, rational, 'living' part o fman, the 'noetic' part, and the body is the physical part of man.

Separating the soul from the spirit in this viewpoint wasn't really popularised until much later. Especially by Watchman Nee (see his 'The Spiritual Man' which is ALL about the 'tripartite nature of humanity').

I do not find the tripartite view (or binary view of classic catholic/orthodox Christendom) to be Biblical.

The Bible does not speak of the person in the way those views do. The bible declares that man is a living soul. Man IS a soul, not 'man has a soul'. What is a SOUL? Biblically, it is a living organism.

Does a man have a soul? Yes, just as a man 'has a life'. And thus we say 'he died' or 'he lost his life', and mean EXACTLY the same thing. And we can even say things like 'all lives on board were lost, they all lost their lives, they all died.'

Soul is the living being. A human soul is different from a dumb animal, of course, due to the differences in nature, but both are called by the Bible 'souls'.

The spirit (ruach, or pneuma) is the 'animating force' that makes flesh LIVE, as opposed to being an inert blob of carbon and h2o and other gooey stuff.

Spirit is 'breath' or 'wind' in that it is active, immaterial, invisible, moving, and capable of moving things. Not to mention, most 'souls' that have 'spirit' happen to also respirate (or 'breathe'), which rocks and bare elements do not, for example.

The spirit of a person who dies goes back to God, thus sayeth the Word of the Lord. Good enough for me, how bout you?

[Esaias]

Now, about 'the grave'.

According to the bible, not only does the body go into the grave, but so does the soul.

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. - Acts 2:27

The word 'hell' is 'ades (Hades) and means the grave.

Jesus died, and was buried - He entered the grave. His body, obviously, was in the grave, yet according to scripture, so was His soul.

Now, you have said this:

"The body (Gk. Soma) is the physical part of a person. The soul (psueche) is the seat of the thoughts and emotions (psyche). "

This is false. It is false in two ways - biblically, and scientifically.

It is false biblically because as I have said the 'soul' is not merely the 'mind' of a person, but is the person themself.

It is false scientifically because the 'thoughts and emotions' are seated in the brain and not some mystically, ephemeral 'soul' as you posit. Now science is based on provable theories. This theory CAN BE PROVEN.

Hit yourself in the head with a hammer, causing brain damage, and see if your thoughts and emotions are affected - or even STOPPED. See? the brain is where the thoughts and emotions are.

Guess what? God knew about this even before the neuro-biologists came on the scene. Look here:

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. - Psalm 146:4

When a person dies, their thoughts PERISH. The Psalmist understood this, neurobiology has proven it, and thus the theory you are espousing is shown to be in error.

Otherwise, alcohol would have no effect on the THOUGHTS and PASSIONS of a person who imbibes too much. What happens when you drink alcohol? The alcohol acts first as a CNS stimulant then (as more is taken in) a CNS depressant. Not only are motor actions affected (vision impaired, speech slurred, equilibrium messed up) but THOUGHTS and EMOTIONS are affected (often adversely).

Same thing with psychoactive substances such as mescaline or LSD. Although almost no motor function is affected with those drugs, the thought processes ARE DEFINITELY AFFECTED. I am not talking about 'seeing things' I am talking about rational thoughts and mental perceptions of the meanings of things.

All this goes to show that the seat of thought and emotion is the BRAIN, a very physical part of the human being.

This does not mean thought ORIGINATES ENTIRELY and ONLY in the brain, but rather that thought EXISTS in the medium of the brain, influenced by both the physical (brain engrams) and spiritual (the spirit of the individual, the spirit of God, other spirits, etc).

This, by the way, is the REASON FOR THE RESURRECTION.

Why must we be RESURRECTED in order to finally enter into eternal life? Because persons are SOULS, produced by the uniting of flesh and spirit. Thus, the body will be raised (changed, actually) and re-united with spirit, to produce a LIVING SOUL (only this time, it will be bearing the image of the Second Man and not the First).

Otherwise, there is NO NEED FOR A RESURRECTION. We can all just jump out of our bodies at death, enter into Heaven, and la-te-da for eternity - no resurrection business needed.

Obviously, that is not the case. There will be a resurrection. 'In my flesh I shall see God.' (so testified Job).

Hades is called 'HADES' because it is "a-" (not) "idou" (visibility, idea, thought, perception). The place of 'no thought, no perception'.

Like the Psalmist declared - in that day, his thoughts PERISH.

[Aquila]

The soul lives on after death. Prior to the resurrection we read:

Revelation 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Paul wrote,

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Notions of "soul sleep" are doctrines of devils.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Now, about 'the grave'.

According to the bible, not only does the body go into the grave, but so does the soul.

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. - Acts 2:27

The word 'hell' is 'ades (Hades) and means the grave.

Jesus died, and was buried - He entered the grave. His body, obviously, was in the grave, yet according to scripture, so was His soul.

Now, you have said this:

"The body (Gk. Soma) is the physical part of a person. The soul (psueche) is the seat of the thoughts and emotions (psyche). "

This is false. It is false in two ways - biblically, and scientifically.

It is false biblically because as I have said the 'soul' is not merely the 'mind' of a person, but is the person themself.

It is false scientifically because the 'thoughts and emotions' are seated in the brain and not some mystically, ephemeral 'soul' as you posit. Now science is based on provable theories. This theory CAN BE PROVEN.

Hit yourself in the head with a hammer, causing brain damage, and see if your thoughts and emotions are affected - or even STOPPED. See? the brain is where the thoughts and emotions are.

Guess what? God knew about this even before the neuro-biologists came on the scene. Look here:

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. - Psalm 146:4

When a person dies, their thoughts PERISH. The Psalmist understood this, neurobiology has proven it, and thus the theory you are espousing is shown to be in error.

Otherwise, alcohol would have no effect on the THOUGHTS and PASSIONS of a person who imbibes too much. What happens when you drink alcohol? The alcohol acts first as a CNS stimulant then (as more is taken in) a CNS depressant. Not only are motor actions affected (vision impaired, speech slurred, equilibrium messed up) but THOUGHTS and EMOTIONS are affected (often adversely).

Same thing with psychoactive substances such as mescaline or LSD. Although almost no motor function is affected with those drugs, the thought processes ARE DEFINITELY AFFECTED. I am not talking about 'seeing things' I am talking about rational thoughts and mental perceptions of the meanings of things.

All this goes to show that the seat of thought and emotion is the BRAIN, a very physical part of the human being.

This does not mean thought ORIGINATES ENTIRELY and ONLY in the brain, but rather that thought EXISTS in the medium of the brain, influenced by both the physical (brain engrams) and spiritual (the spirit of the individual, the spirit of God, other spirits, etc).

This, by the way, is the REASON FOR THE RESURRECTION.

Why must we be RESURRECTED in order to finally enter into eternal life? Because persons are SOULS, produced by the uniting of flesh and spirit. Thus, the body will be raised (changed, actually) and re-united with spirit, to produce a LIVING SOUL (only this time, it will be bearing the image of the Second Man and not the First).

Otherwise, there is NO NEED FOR A RESURRECTION. We can all just jump out of our bodies at death, enter into Heaven, and la-te-da for eternity - no resurrection business needed.

Obviously, that is not the case. There will be a resurrection. 'In my flesh I shall see God.' (so testified Job).

Hades is called 'HADES' because it is "a-" (not) "idou" (visibility, idea, thought, perception). The place of 'no thought, no perception'.

Like the Psalmist declared - in that day, his thoughts PERISH.

Now this is some good teaching.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The soul lives on after death. Prior to the resurrection we read:

Revelation 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

So then they live on under the altar? I thought they would be in Abraham's lap? Or up the block on the streets of gold?

Paul wrote,

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

The context of the passage clearly indicates Paul was looking forward and talking about the resurrection.

2 corinthians 5

1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

The context is the resurrection. Death is the 'unclothing', resurrection is the being 'clothed upon'. He specifically states the Christian hope is NOT TO BE UNCLOTHED, but to be CLOTHED UPON.

When does this happen? When is 'mortality swallowed up of life'?

1 Corinthians 15
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

A prooftext without context is a spooftext.

Notions of "soul sleep" are doctrines of devils.

It was the serpent who introduced the doctrine of the immortal soul - 'ye shall NOT surely die' - way back in the Garden.

[Michael The Disciple]

It was the serpent who introduced the doctrine of the immortal soul - 'ye shall NOT surely die' - way back in the Garden.

Glad you are back Bro.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Glad you are back Bro.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So then they live on under the altar? I thought they would be in Abraham's lap? Or up the block on the streets of gold?

Esaias,

Heaven is a dynamic place. These are gathered under the altar in petition for divine retribution against the enemies of God. This doesn't mean that they were not, nor that they cannot walk on streets of gold and navigate the rest of Heaven. We're seeing a snapshot of a specific event in time... not a defining, locked down, location.

As for Abraham's Bosom, this was the abode of the dead prior to the New Covenant. No one is in Abraham's Bosom today.

The context of the passage clearly indicates Paul was looking forward and talking about the resurrection.

Paul himself states that "to be absent from the body". Therewith we can conclude that it is indeed possible to be absent from the body... and as Paul put it... to be present with the Lord.

2 corinthians 5

1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

The context is the resurrection. Death is the 'unclothing', resurrection is the being 'clothed upon'. He specifically states the Christian hope is NOT TO BE UNCLOTHED, but to be CLOTHED UPON.

When does this happen? When is 'mortality swallowed up of life'?

1 Corinthians 15
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

A prooftext without context is a spooftext.

You call plucking a verse out of it's context in I Corinthians 5 and comparing it to another text in I Corinthians (another letter) chapter 15 keeping things in context? LOL

It was the serpent who introduced the doctrine of the immortal soul - 'ye shall NOT surely die' - way back in the Garden.

Wrong. The serpent didn't say, "Ye shall die, and yet sure live." Adam and Eve were told that they would indeed physically die in the very day that they ate of the tree of the knowledge of God and evil. The serpent's lie was with regards to physical death. He was telling them that God was lying. Now, as we know, Adam and Eve didn't physically die the very day that they ate of the tree. Why? Because God showed mercy and grace. We see that God covers their nakedness with coats of "skins". In other words... God slayed and animal in their place to cover their nakedness. This is an early type and shadow of Calvary. Your faulty interpretation unravels the fact that sacrificial atonement is typified in the very first story of the Bible.

Soul sleep is a doctrine of devils. A lie.

[Aquila]

Countless near death experiences wherein people are declared clinically dead and testify that they found themselves above their own bodies and watched staff take action to save their lives... noting the individuals present, what was said, procedures done, and even what responders wore... testifies that consciousness continues on after death. You're essentially calling all of these people liars.

You are also testifying against Scripture which clearly teaches that life goes on after death. Even Samuel was able to be aroused from His rest and consciously prophesied against Saul while disembodied.

Jesus testifies:

Luke 24:36-39 (KJV)
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Here the disciples were terrified, afraid that they were seeing Christ's "spirit" (ghost). Yet Jesus testifies that spirits don't have flesh and blood. They are disembodied realities.

Soul sleep is a doctrine of devils.

[Aquila]

Most don't realize that Jonah actually died when cast into the sea. Here's Jonah's testimony (near death experience):

Jonah's Prayer

2 Then Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the belly of the fish, 2 saying,


“I called out to the Lord, out of my distress,
and he answered me;
out of the belly of Sheol I cried,
and you heard my voice.
3 For you cast me into the deep,
into the heart of the seas,
and the flood surrounded me;
all your waves and your billows
passed over me.
4 Then I said, ‘I am driven away
from your sight;
yet I shall again look
upon your holy temple.’
5 The waters closed in over me to take my life;
the deep surrounded me;
weeds were wrapped about my head
6 at the roots of the mountains.
I went down to the land
whose bars closed upon me forever;
yet you brought up my life from the pit,
O Lord my God.
7 When my life was fainting away,
I remembered the Lord,
and my prayer came to you,
into your holy temple.
8 Those who pay regard to vain idols
forsake their hope of steadfast love.
9 But I with the voice of thanksgiving
will sacrifice to you;
what I have vowed I will pay.
Salvation belongs to the Lord!”

10 And the Lord spoke to the fish, and it vomited Jonah out upon the dry land.

Jonah, in spirit, cries out from the very depths of death (the grave, Sheol). Jonah was consciously aware of his body being pulled by currents into the depth of the sea. Jonah saw the mountains of the deep. Jonah saw the head of his own body surrounded by sea weed. Then Jonah based beyond the very gates of the grave where the bars are typically closed forever. However... the LORD heard Jonah's post mortem prayer.

This is why Jonah is a perfect type and symbol of Christ's resurrection:

Matthew 12:38-40 (ESV)
38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying, “Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you.” 39 But he answered them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

The doctrine of soul sleep isn't biblical, it's a doctrine of devils.

We also read David's own testimony with regards to the departed child he had with Bathsheba,

2 Samuel 12:23
But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

David understood that his deceased son could return from the realm of the dead. However, David understood that upon death he, himself, would go to his son.

Soul sleep is a doctrine of devils.