Bernard continues his rewrite of UPC history

[Charnock]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

ROFL..it's true until you prove it false?

Classic Logical fallacy. The burden of proof is on whoever made the assertion

Which church belief system? Roman Orthodox? Greek Orthodox? Russian Orthodox? Calvinism? Lutheranism? Wesleyism?

Which one of those is that church that existed throughout history? Because they don't all agree with each other either

Praxeas, Bill Price asserted that there has always been a group of OP adherents throughout history. He bears the burden of proof, not me.

What's next? Fairies are real? Unicorns? Nessie?

This isn't about which denomination is correct. What does the Bible say? What does history show?

The Bible says everyone who believes Jesus is the Messiah is born of God.

History shows there has always been a large group of believers, even in the Dark Ages.

[Charnock]

On the other hand, there was no such thing as Oneness Pentecostalism until the second decade of the 20th century. We have many proofs that our movement sprang up as an offshoot of Wesleyan Methodism. PPH has documented the origins of the movement.

Yet we have men, like Bill Price, who state that the 20th century OP movement was not a restoration - it was a continuation.

A continuation of what?

Where did this movement exist prior to the 20th century? What evidences do you have that it existed?

Zero. Zero evidences. There is no movement like this one prior to the 2nd decade of the 20th century. Sure, some groups possessed one element or another, but none possessed all of the elements we deem essential to salvation.

In fact, even those who held at least one of the elements (Oneness, baptism, or tongues) denied all other elements. Do we consider these heretics brothers? Saved?

[Charnock]

Chalfant and Weisser hold up obscure sects of Christians that practiced one of the elements as proof that there has been continuity. Yet they conveniently omit other doctrinal "errors" of these sects.

For instance, some Quakers baptized in the name of Jesus. Great. Trouble is, they were also hard and fast Trinitarians who never spoke in tongues.

This need to revise history is troubling. It's dishonest and reveals the origins of false doctrine in the OP movement.

[Charnock]

I have discussed this issue, at length, with conservative Apostolic preachers who state that the Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal movement has existed in an unbroken chain of succession throughout history. They go so far as to deny any connection to Azusa and Topeka.

It is sad that people so in love with "The Elders" and "Old Paths" are so purposefully ignorant of their own heritage.

[Michael The Disciple]

And yes, I don't care which label is used, anyone that believes Jesus is the Messiah is "born of God."

Yes thats what I thought.

[Charnock]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

The notion that the Oneness doctrine was hidden for centuries since the times of the Apostles is absolutely false. Because God has preserved His Word, and we know that it is true, and that the truth is clearly defined in scripture, the Oneness doctrine has indeed always been around. Even if the majority of people did not believe it, and the false church tried to silence it, God has preserved His Word to show us the doctrine is there, and always has been. I wish we Apostolics would get enough of a spiritual backbone to see this lie is nothing more than a discredit attempt by the enemy. The One God doctrine has always been around, as has been the doctrine of water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. It is not some 'new' doctrine, but is a true doctrine preserved in the Word through the ages.

Hate to break it to you, but God "preserved His word" through the Roman Catholic Church. They are the ones who decided which books are canon and which aren't.

[Charnock]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Yes thats what I thought.

So Michael, what do you do with 1 John 5?

Verse 1: "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:"

Verse 5: "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"

Verse 13: "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

[Charnock]

I have a feeling it's going to be very quiet for a while.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Charnock

So Michael, what do you do with 1 John 5?

Verse 1: "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:"

Verse 5: "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"

Verse 13: "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

Charnock, we harmonize them with the rest of the scriptures like the ones on repentance, and water baptism, and being filled with the Spirit, etc.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Charnock

I have a feeling it's going to be very quiet for a while.

Its a matter of rightly dividing the word of truth. If you understand what is meant by "the Christ" your eyes would be opened.

What is the Old Testament basis for the New Testament doctrine of Christ?

Here it is!

Isaiah 9:6

6 For unto us a child is born , unto us a son is given : and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor , The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.

So yes those who are believing Jesus is THE CHRIST have been born of God.

As you can see THE BIBLICAL CHRIST is both the SON AND FATHER.

Exceedingly amazing is the fact that all over the world only ONE group of those who say they believe actually teach that the Messiah Jesus IS BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON.

That is the Oneness Churches that baptize in Jesus name.