Would You Ever Challenge Your Pastor?

[Fiyahstarter]

BT,

Let me give a few case scenarios, and tell me a) IF the congregant SHOULD tell the pastor why he's leaving, and if so, b) exactly what should the congregant say.

1) Congregant attends services for 5 years, enjoys the worship and preaching (for the most part) but cannot get "on board" with what he feels is extra-biblical teachings (certain standards) ... and because cannot get "on board" is unable to participate in any part of the ministry. Feels stagnant and feels must leave the congregation to "grow."

2) Congregant attends services faithfully for several years, dutiful tithe-payer, but has reservations about how the money is being spent.

3) Congregant attends services off and on...likes to experience different services at many different churches in the area. Does not feel obligated to attend just one church; does not desire to partake in church-building ministry. Rather, follows own heart and voice of God regarding where to go and where to give (both monetarily and time).

4) Congregant attends services faithfully for many years and has watched the church come full circle (standards were eliminated; music style went from traditional to contemporary; more of a younger generation thing). No longer enjoys the services...feels is too loud and somewhat showy.

Just curious...does a pastor really want to know when these people leave just WHY they left? Or are some things better left unsaid?

[BeenThinkin]

Originally Posted by Fiyahstarter

BT,

Let me give a few case scenarios, and tell me a) IF the congregant SHOULD tell the pastor why he's leaving, and if so, b) exactly what should the congregant say.

1) Congregant attends services for 5 years, enjoys the worship and preaching (for the most part) but cannot get "on board" with what he feels is extra-biblical teachings (certain standards) ... and because cannot get "on board" is unable to participate in any part of the ministry. Feels stagnant and feels must leave the congregation to "grow."

2) Congregant attends services faithfully for several years, dutiful tithe-payer, but has reservations about how the money is being spent.

3) Congregant attends services off and on...likes to experience different services at many different churches in the area. Does not feel obligated to attend just one church; does not desire to partake in church-building ministry. Rather, follows own heart and voice of God regarding where to go and where to give (both monetarily and time).

4) Congregant attends services faithfully for many years and has watched the church come full circle (standards were eliminated; music style went from traditional to contemporary; more of a younger generation thing). No longer enjoys the services...feels is too loud and somewhat showy.

Just curious...does a pastor really want to know when these people leave just WHY they left? Or are some things better left unsaid?

Fiyahstarter, good questions. Let me respond.

1. I would sit down and talk with the pastor, (and if he's one you can't talk with, then you should have been gone a long time ago.) and simply express, in the right spirit, my feelings and let him know that you bear no ill will, but feel under the circumstances you must move on.

2. MONEY! A big issue in many cases. If he has given reason for you to feel that the money is not be handled right then again, approach him with respect, and simply express your feelings. If he's the pastor he should be he'll discuss this with you and do his best to settle your fears. If he's miss handling the churches money ..... and he won't reason with you, (and he probably won't if he's mishandling it), then express your discontent and let him know that you are moving on. He probably will be happy, if he's wrong. I do not take the tithes in my church. I started it from scratch and set myself a modest salary. (Could have taken the tithes, there was no one there to stop me at the time.) The church was incorporated and we filed with the IRS for tax exempt status, and I then appointed a finance committee and by IRS regulations they set the salary of the pastor. I do not look at the offerings each week and keep up with what people are giving or not giving. Don't want to know. If I preach and set an example they will do what they should. The Secretary/Treasurer handle the offerings, counted by two ushers, who initial a record book each week with what was received in the offering. That book always stays in the church office and is a protection for me, in case someone should question the finances.

3. I would again, express this to the pastor and do my best to make him understand why I was doing what I was doing, and that I was not doing it to be rebellious or to cause confusion in the church. Of course I do not feel that that is a good thing to be doing. It sets you up where you do not have to be faithful or responsible to any church and is a good setup to find church not that important and even a vehicle to lead you to not attending at all. And I know the argument about house churches and I naturally don't agree. And I do feel according to scripture that we should assemble together.

4. Now with the examples you've given here, I might leave with you. ha ha. I guess I'm a little old fashion, but I get tired of 4 lines in a chorus being repeated so many times I find myself counting how many times we've said those same words. If we don't sing a hymn now and then, then my grandkids will never know the words to "How Great Thou Art" and "Amazing Grace." As far as too loud I agree. If you can't hear get you a hearing aide and don't cause everyone else to having hearing problems from the music being too loud. Some places you almost need hearing guards like we wear at the firing range.

I am well aware that you can't please everyone, but that doesn't stop me from trying, within reason. I always hate to see anyone leave, but am aware that my style of pastoring doesn't please everyone. (I just can't understand why everyone wouldn't like me and want me to be their pastor. lol)

And yes, I do want to know where my folks are. Not in a possessive way but because I care. If I'm your pastor I consider you like family and if my family only showed up now and then I would want to know what I was doing wrong. Is that wrong? I don't think so and I sure hope not.

I hope this at least gives you something to think about and maybe you'll agree with me on some of this.

Been Thinkin

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Fiyahstarter

BT,

Let me give a few case scenarios, and tell me a) IF the congregant SHOULD tell the pastor why he's leaving, and if so, b) exactly what should the congregant say.

1) Congregant attends services for 5 years, enjoys the worship and preaching (for the most part) but cannot get "on board" with what he feels is extra-biblical teachings (certain standards) ... and because cannot get "on board" is unable to participate in any part of the ministry. Feels stagnant and feels must leave the congregation to "grow."

2) Congregant attends services faithfully for several years, dutiful tithe-payer, but has reservations about how the money is being spent.

3) Congregant attends services off and on...likes to experience different services at many different churches in the area. Does not feel obligated to attend just one church; does not desire to partake in church-building ministry. Rather, follows own heart and voice of God regarding where to go and where to give (both monetarily and time).

4) Congregant attends services faithfully for many years and has watched the church come full circle (standards were eliminated; music style went from traditional to contemporary; more of a younger generation thing). No longer enjoys the services...feels is too loud and somewhat showy.

Just curious...does a pastor really want to know when these people leave just WHY they left? Or are some things better left unsaid?

As a pastor's son, let me answer your last question first. Yes, pastors do wish to know when people leave and why. We have had some who left with no notice. They were present for outreach Saturday morning and had stopped attendance before Sunday morning service. They left no notice, and would not have spoken to our pastor (my father) at all, except he sought them out to make inquiry. It is always better to give notice. It helps also to reliable in keeping the pastor informed when you are going to miss. They worry about the saints. If you do not wish to cause him extra worry, keep him updated.

1) I have never had an issue with this situation. Most pastors will accept those who live outside of the standards that are taught, but those people never become true members. If a person wishes to leave for a church with lighter standards, they should approach the pastor, tell him that they love him and his teaching (assuming that they are being honest about this), but that they are simply not happy. They should then be willing to listen politely to his response.

2) This is a very sticky situation and should be handled with delicate care. Most of the time, unless there is critical mismanagement of the funds, there is not truly a reason to become involved in the finances of the church. The should be as a rule yearly business meetings which state how much came into the church. It should also not be uncommon for a church to have something of a catch-all fund for any unusual purchases. There should not be a breaking down of how much each individual gave in that reprt. This has been done in our church, but there are always those who will not be pleased unless they are the ones in charge of the budget.

3) This person should talk to the pastor as well. As they are a rolling stone, he will not be surprised when the stone continues to roll.

4) This is another that I have never had to deal with, but I would say that it should be handled in the same manner as the individual who is leaving because the standards are 'too high'.

Above all, any time one deals with a pastor (no matter what the name they belong to) it should be done with dignity, grace, respect, and highest courtesy. They stand before God for their people, and should be accorded that honor.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by BeenThinkin

I hope this at least gives you something to think about and maybe you'll agree with me on some of this.

Been Thinkin

BT, having grown up in the home of a pastor/ordained minister, I can truly say that your advice is good. While there are some things that I might not quite agree with, your principles that are laid forth are good, and would save many a pastor needless grief if they would be followed.

[Fiyahstarter]

Thanks for your response--Spoken with the heart of a pastor. I've highlighted my favorite parts... I've added some of my own thoughts in red.

Oh, and for the record... these are hypotheticals (well, actually, a few are based on experiences of friends I've known...)

I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT ANY PARTICULAR CHURCH OR ANY PARTICULAR PASTOR! LOL. (Just wanted to make that clear!! )

Originally Posted by BeenThinkin

Fiyahstarter, good questions. Let me respond.

1. I would sit down and talk with the pastor, (and if he's one you can't talk with, then you should have been gone a long time ago.) and simply express, in the right spirit, my feelings and let him know that you bear no ill will, but feel under the circumstances you must move on.

What if the pastor tells the congregation now and again that if they don't like what's being done, then hit the road. Would you still feel obligated to tell him WHY you left?

2. MONEY! A big issue in many cases. If he has given reason for you to feel that the money is not be handled right then again, approach him with respect, and simply express your feelings. If he's the pastor he should be he'll discuss this with you and do his best to settle your fears. If he's miss handling the churches money ..... and he won't reason with you, (and he probably won't if he's mishandling it), then express your discontent and let him know that you are moving on. He probably will be happy, if he's wrong. I do not take the tithes in my church. I started it from scratch and set myself a modest salary. (Could have taken the tithes, there was no one there to stop me at the time.) The church was incorporated and we filed with the IRS for tax exempt status, and I then appointed a finance committee and by IRS regulations they set the salary of the pastor. I do not look at the offerings each week and keep up with what people are giving or not giving. Don't want to know. If I preach and set an example they will do what they should. The Secretary/Treasurer handle the offerings, counted by two ushers, who initial a record book each week with what was received in the offering.That book always stays in the church office and is a protection for me, in case someone should question the finances.


Would you be offended if a congregant wanted to know where the money was going out? Who were paid staff? How much was donated out, etc?

3. I would again, express this to the pastor and do my best to make him understand why I was doing what I was doing, and that I was not doing it to be rebellious or to cause confusion in the church. Of course I do not feel that that is a good thing to be doing. It sets you up where you do not have to be faithful or responsible to any church and is a good setup to find church not that important and even a vehicle to lead you to not attending at all. And I know the argument about house churches and I naturally don't agree. And I do feel according to scripture that we should assemble together.

Is a person supposed to be loyal to one church?

4. Now with the examples you've given here, I might leave with you. ha ha. I guess I'm a little old fashion, but I get tired of 4 lines in a chorus being repeated so many times I find myself counting how many times we've said those same words. If we don't sing a hymn now and then, then my grandkids will never know the words to "How Great Thou Art" and "Amazing Grace." As far as too loud I agree. If you can't hear get you a hearing aide and don't cause everyone else to having hearing problems from the music being too loud. Some places you almost need hearing guards like we wear at the firing range.

I am well aware that you can't please everyone, but that doesn't stop me from trying, within reason. I always hate to see anyone leave, but am aware that my style of pastoring doesn't please everyone. (I just can't understand why everyone wouldn't like me and want me to be their pastor. lol)

Do you call members if they are missing for awhile to see if everything is OK?

And yes, I do want to know where my folks are. Not in a possessive way but because I care. If I'm your pastor I consider you like family and if my family only showed up now and then I would want to know what I was doing wrong. Is that wrong? I don't think so and I sure hope not.

I hope this at least gives you something to think about and maybe you'll agree with me on some of this.

Been Thinkin

[AreYouReady?]

Brother Been Thin King, you are a good man. I like you. I probably would like your wife too. She must have good character if she married you.

[Fiyahstarter]

Thanks for the response! My personal notes will be in red.

Originally Posted by Jay

As a pastor's son, let me answer your last question first. Yes, pastors do wish to know when people leave and why. We have had some who left with no notice. They were present for outreach Saturday morning and had stopped attendance before Sunday morning service. They left no notice, and would not have spoken to our pastor (my father) at all, except he sought them out to make inquiry. It is always better to give notice. It helps also to reliable in keeping the pastor informed when you are going to miss. They worry about the saints. If you do not wish to cause him extra worry, keep him updated. I can see this if they are serving in the ministry...but does the pastor really want to know every time a saint is AWOL? How large is your church?

1) I have never had an issue with this situation. Most pastors will accept those who live outside of the standards that are taught, but those people never become true members. To me, this is a sad statement. If a person wishes to leave for a church with lighter standards, they should approach the pastor, tell him that they love him and his teaching (assuming that they are being honest about this), but that they are simply not happy. They should then be willing to listen politely to his response.

2) This is a very sticky situation and should be handled with delicate care. Most of the time, unless there is critical mismanagement of the funds, [what constitutes 'critical'? I should think ANY mismanagement is critical.] there is not truly a reason to become involved in the finances of the church. The should be as a rule yearly business meetings which state how much came into the church. It should also not be uncommon for a church to have something of a catch-all fund for any unusual purchases. There should not be a breaking down of how much each individual gave in that reprt. This has been done in our church, but there are always those who will not be pleased unless they are the ones in charge of the budget.

3) This person should talk to the pastor as well. As they are a rolling stone, he will not be surprised when the stone continues to roll.

4) This is another that I have never had to deal with, but I would say that it should be handled in the same manner as the individual who is leaving because the standards are 'too high'.

Above all, any time one deals with a pastor (no matter what the name they belong to) it should be done with dignity, grace, respect, and highest courtesy. They stand before God for their people, and should be accorded that honor.

I hope that 'dignity, grace, respect, and highest courtesy' of which you speak is a two-way street.

[BeenThinkin]

Flyahstarters quote

Thanks for your response--Spoken with the heart of a pastor. I've highlighted my favorite parts... I've added some of my own thoughts in red.

Oh, and for the record... these are hypotheticals (well, actually, a few are based on experiences of friends I've known...)

I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT ANY PARTICULAR CHURCH OR ANY PARTICULAR PASTOR! LOL. (Just wanted to make that clear!! )


Flyahstarter's questions in red.
Been Thinkin responses in purple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeenThinkin


Fiyahstarter, good questions. Let me respond.

1. I would sit down and talk with the pastor, (and if he's one you can't talk with, then you should have been gone a long time ago.) and simply express, in the right spirit, my feelings and let him know that you bear no ill will, but feel under the circumstances you must move on.

What if the pastor tells the congregation now and again that if they don't like what's being done, then hit the road. Would you still feel obligated to tell him WHY you left?

No! I wouldn't let him say that too many times and I would be gone! He may demand respect, but you don't demand it, you earn it!

2. MONEY! A big issue in many cases. If he has given reason for you to feel that the money is not be handled right then again, approach him with respect, and simply express your feelings. If he's the pastor he should be he'll discuss this with you and do his best to settle your fears. If he's miss handling the churches money ..... and he won't reason with you, (and he probably won't if he's mishandling it), then express your discontent and let him know that you are moving on. He probably will be happy, if he's wrong. I do not take the tithes in my church. I started it from scratch and set myself a modest salary. (Could have taken the tithes, there was no one there to stop me at the time.) The church was incorporated and we filed with the IRS for tax exempt status, and I then appointed a finance committee and by IRS regulations they set the salary of the pastor. I do not look at the offerings each week and keep up with what people are giving or not giving. Don't want to know. If I preach and set an example they will do what they should. The Secretary/Treasurer handle the offerings, counted by two ushers, who initial a record book each week with what was received in the offering.That book always stays in the church office and is a protection for me, in case someone should question the finances.


Would you be offended if a congregant wanted to know where the money was going out? Who were paid staff? How much was donated out, etc?

As long as a person shows the right spirit, and are supporting the church themselves, I think they have a right to know. I do not think they have the right to know what anyone else has or has not given, nor does anyone have the right to know what they have given.


3. I would again, express this to the pastor and do my best to make him understand why I was doing what I was doing, and that I was not doing it to be rebellious or to cause confusion in the church. Of course I do not feel that that is a good thing to be doing. It sets you up where you do not have to be faithful or responsible to any church and is a good setup to find church not that important and even a vehicle to lead you to not attending at all. And I know the argument about house churches and I naturally don't agree. And I do feel according to scripture that we should assemble together.

Is a person supposed to be loyal to one church?


Loyalty to one church has many more pluses. It also helps a pastor and the church to plan for the future. And if you're a member in the church that I pastor I will be loyal to you and feel it's only fair that you would be loyal to me and to the church.



4. Now with the examples you've given here, I might leave with you. ha ha. I guess I'm a little old fashion, but I get tired of 4 lines in a chorus being repeated so many times I find myself counting how many times we've said those same words. If we don't sing a hymn now and then, then my grandkids will never know the words to "How Great Thou Art" and "Amazing Grace." As far as too loud I agree. If you can't hear get you a hearing aide and don't cause everyone else to having hearing problems from the music being too loud. Some places you almost need hearing guards like we wear at the firing range.

I am well aware that you can't please everyone, but that doesn't stop me from trying, within reason. I always hate to see anyone leave, but am aware that my style of pastoring doesn't please everyone. (I just can't understand why everyone wouldn't like me and want me to be their pastor. lol)


Do you call members if they are missing for awhile to see if everything is OK?


I call them when they are missing a short time, and not in an ugly manner, but letting them know that I missed them and care, and if there's a problem let's talk about it.


And yes, I do want to know where my folks are. Not in a possessive way but because I care. If I'm your pastor I consider you like family and if my family only showed up now and then I would want to know what I was doing wrong. Is that wrong? I don't think so and I sure hope not.

I hope this at least gives you something to think about and maybe you'll agree with me on some of this.

Been Thinkin

[Fiyahstarter]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Brother Been Thin King, you are a good man. I like you. . .

[BeenThinkin]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Brother Been Thin King, you are a good man. I like you. I probably would like your wife too. She must have good character if she married you.

And put up with me for 50 years. She's always loved me, but I'm sure there were many times she didn't like me! If you know what I mean. And thanks for the kind words. I'll continue to do my best to live up to them.

Been Thinkin