A thought on tithing

[DaveC519]

Originally Posted by seekerman

The point I as attempting to make is that there is no priesthood distinction between believers as it was in the OT system. For example, there is no difference between the priesthood of a pastor and the priesthood of the saint sitting on the pew. The OT tithing system supported the priesthood as well as the temple, neither of which exist today and cannot be tithed into today. The issue is where to pay the tithe in the view that the OT system is dead and gone.

Since the Apostle Paul was conveying the command to the church, I do not think it unreasonable to suggest that the tithe be paid into the church for the support of the ministry. It appears that, at least in Corinth, Paul alludes to Peter, James & Jude, and other Apostles receiving support from the church when they ministered there (vs.5, 12). At this time in church history, there probably was not a monarchical episcopate yet established at Corinth.

Yes, I agree, the ministry should be supported by the giving/tithing of the saints. The question then becomes, what is the ministry? I'm not attempting to make this any more complicated than what it is, but is ministry the actions of building bigger and elaborate buildings in which the church is to meet? I don't think that's ministry at all. I wouldn't tithe into that.

Is the ministry the actions of individuals who interact with Christ by feeding the hungry, clothing the naked? In my opinion, if one wishes to interact intimately with Jesus and the Melchizedektic priesthood with his or her tithe, feed the hungry, clothe the naked. When you do this, you're doing it directly to Jesus per scripture.

I believe ministry includes, as you have pointed out, proclaiming the gospel. The problem is, what ministers are to be supported and in what level of support are they to receive? My background is oneness Pentecostalism. In that religious system I saw the pastor receive the tithe for proclaiming the gospel while the Sunday school teachers, the song leader, the musicians offering their ministry for free. Are we to tithe to the singers who sing the gospel or the teachers who teach the gospel or just tithe to the person who lives in the building based church system (which has no scriptural support at all).

So, it's not an easy matter at times to know WHERE to pay one's tithe. It's certainly not simply to a man who calls himself a minister or preacher who's involved in an unscriptural religious system.

These are all valid points, and I would agree that there have been, and continue to be, abuses as to how the tithe is distributed. NT senior pastors/bishops will be held just as accountable as OT pastors (Jer 23; Ezek 34) for how they stewarded the flock of God.

How should the tithe be distributed?

"The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. (1 Peter 5:1-3)

As to church buildings? For me personally, I see a difference between letting God's glory fill the house, and the house being built and decorated for its own glory. In medieval times, cathedrals & tabernacles were constructed to inspire awe and fear in the hearts of attendants. I prefer to see the Holy Ghost do that.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Very clear and correct by the way. Get your shield the God robbers are coming.

[DaveC519]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Very clear and correct by the way. Get your shield the God robbers are coming.

Thank you.

[DaveC519]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Nehemiah placed other Levites over the tithing chamber to disburst the money. Thus someone has to take charge that the work of God is taken care of. A real pastor will see these needs are met you mention. However the singers & muscians though at blessing are not those who sow-thresh-reap. They do not PREACH the gospel only those who PREACH the gospel are ordained to live OF the gospel.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by DaveC519

Having said that, I do believe there is a NT tithing system, and this tithe is SEPARATE AND APART FROM the Law. And I believe this is what Paul was arguing for in 1Cor 9.

I think Paul tells us very specifically who this goes to in 1Cor 9:14-

"So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel." (1Cor 9:14 NASU)

houtoos kai (“even so”- KJV) is variously rendered “so also” (NASU, YLT) or “in the same way” (NLT, ESV, NIV, CJB, TLB, NCV, RSV). It means that the precepts or maxims which preceded this statement are to serve as the pattern, manner and example for that which follows:

ho Kurios dietaxen (“hath the Lord ordained”): dietaxen is third person singular aorist active indicative of diatasso. This verb appears sixteen times in the NT, and is variously rendered in the KJV as “command”, “appoint”, “ordain”, “set in order”, or “give order”. Other translations: “directed” (NASU, CJB, YLT), “ordered” (NLT), “commanded” (ESV, NIV, NCV, RSV), or “given orders” (TLB). It is used to convey a directive or commandment.

In this verse, the Apostle Paul is saying that the Lord has issued a commandment that they who preach the gospel should live (literally) “out of the gospel” (ek tou euangeliou zeen), and they should do so based directly upon the pattern, manner and example which precedes this verse, specifically, verse 13:

"Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?" (1 Cor 9:13 KJV).

Paul makes his appeal to the principle behind the Levitical tithing system to support his argument. Just as the Levitical priests lived of the offerings at the altar, "even so" should they who preach the gospel live by similar means.

The command for this to take place is issued to the church; the recipients are they who preach the gospel.

Your thoughts?

Thank you for taking the time to respond. After reading your post and after reflecting a bit, I am wondering why, if Paul puts forth this teaching as a "command" for tithing, would he throw a little wrench in the system and claim that he excludes himself from this "command". It seems as though that could cause a bit of confusion for others toward this transitional teaching. In the OT, no one was able to be excluded - it was a "command".

Originally Posted by DaveC519

Since the Apostle Paul was conveying the command to the church, I do not think it unreasonable to suggest that the tithe be paid into the church for the support of the ministry. It appears that, at least in Corinth, Paul alludes to Peter, James & Jude, and other Apostles receiving support from the church when they ministered there (vs.5, 12). At this time in church history, there probably was not a monarchical episcopate yet established at Corinth.

These are all valid points, and I would agree that there have been, and continue to be, abuses as to how the tithe is distributed. NT senior pastors/bishops will be held just as accountable as OT pastors (Jer 23; Ezek 34) for how they stewarded the flock of God.

How should the tithe be distributed?

"The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. (1 Peter 5:1-3)

As to church buildings? For me personally, I see a difference between letting God's glory fill the house, and the house being built and decorated for its own glory. In medieval times, cathedrals & tabernacles were constructed to inspire awe and fear in the hearts of attendants. I prefer to see the Holy Ghost do that.

Do you think that your point that I highlighted is a reasonable stand to take after reading Galatians 6:6? It appears to me that the idea is to "provide" for them in the way that tithing did in the OT, but not necessarily is setting up a tithing system in the NT.

"Those who are taught the word of God should provide for their teachers, sharing all good things with them." (NIV)

communicate unto him — “impart a share unto his teacher” - JFB

"In all good things - In everything that is needful for their comfortable subsistence. On the duty here enjoined see the notes at 1Co_9:11-13." - Barnes

"Communicate unto him that teacheth - Contribute to the support of the man who has dedicated himself to the work of the ministry, and who gives up his time and his life to preach the Gospel. It appears that some of the believers in Galatia could receive the Christian ministry without contributing to its support. This is both ungrateful and base." - Gill

I attended both the Catholic and Baptist Church, at different points in my life, and it seems more reasonable to give to the support of the church, who then pays it out to where it needs to go. Because, again, the tithing (if we want to go that direction for the NT church) did not support one person, it supported the whole Levitical system.

Sorry, Brother Epley, but I just want to ask!

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by DaveC519

Since the Apostle Paul was conveying the command to the church, I do not think it unreasonable to suggest that the tithe be paid into the church for the support of the ministry. It appears that, at least in Corinth, Paul alludes to Peter, James & Jude, and other Apostles receiving support from the church when they ministered there (vs.5, 12). At this time in church history, there probably was not a monarchical episcopate yet established at Corinth.

No doubt the church supported the ministry in their giving, I agree on that. The problem, and it's a critical one, is concerning just exactly what the church was that gave support to the ministry.

The concept of what the church is, is tremendously flawed in modern day Christianity in my opinion. While the protestants may have separated themselves from much of the Roman Catholic teachings, one major error was keeping the building-based religious system of Roman Catholicism. When Paul wrote to the church in Corinth, he was writing to a group of believers, called out ones, the ekklesia. He wasn't writing concerning the support a building-based religious system with the building being labeled the church. It's so ingrained within the mindset of Christians that they never stop and think about calling a building a church. Oneness Pentecostals take it a step lower many times by labeling a building as 'bro so-and-so's church'.

Does the bible teach there is such a building-based system in which to pay tithes. Not at all, in fact it's just the opposite. Paul touched on it in Galatians concerning those who were wishing to enter into something God has completely and totally destroyed. Christianity continues to attempt to set up the tithe supported priesthood and temple and call it ministry and the building a church or temple, or house of God. It simply isn't to be that way though.

So, tithing into a building-based 'church' system isn't really tithing into the church. The question remains, where is one to place their tithe?

These are all valid points, and I would agree that there have been, and continue to be, abuses as to how the tithe is distributed. NT senior pastors/bishops will be held just as accountable as OT pastors (Jer 23; Ezek 34) for how they stewarded the flock of God.

How should the tithe be distributed?

"The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. (1 Peter 5:1-3)

As to church buildings? For me personally, I see a difference between letting God's glory fill the house, and the house being built and decorated for its own glory. In medieval times, cathedrals & tabernacles were constructed to inspire awe and fear in the hearts of attendants. I prefer to see the Holy Ghost do that.

Me too.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Thank you for taking the time to respond. After reading your post and after reflecting a bit, I am wondering why, if Paul puts forth this teaching as a "command" for tithing, would he throw a little wrench in the system and claim that he excludes himself from this "command". It seems as though that could cause a bit of confusion for others toward this transitional teaching. In the OT, no one was able to be excluded - it was a "command".




Do you think that your point that I highlighted is a reasonable stand to take after reading Galatians 6:6? It appears to me that the idea is to "provide" for them in the way that tithing did in the OT, but not necessarily is setting up a tithing system in the NT.

"Those who are taught the word of God should provide for their teachers, sharing all good things with them." (NIV)

communicate unto him — “impart a share unto his teacher” - JFB

"In all good things - In everything that is needful for their comfortable subsistence. On the duty here enjoined see the notes at 1Co_9:11-13." - Barnes

"Communicate unto him that teacheth - Contribute to the support of the man who has dedicated himself to the work of the ministry, and who gives up his time and his life to preach the Gospel. It appears that some of the believers in Galatia could receive the Christian ministry without contributing to its support. This is both ungrateful and base." - Gill

I attended both the Catholic and Baptist Church, at different points in my life, and it seems more reasonable to give to the support of the church, who then pays it out to where it needs to go. Because, again, the tithing (if we want to go that direction for the NT church) did not support one person, it supported the whole Levitical system.

Sorry, Brother Epley, but I just want to ask!

Tithing does do just that. If I paid evangelists and missionaries what came in the offering only there would be no evangelists & Missionaries. I do not believe a pastor that would hoard up an abundance for himself at the expense of the other ministries it right.

Both in 1 Cor. & Heb. 7 tithing is taught. Since the local church is the base of operations of the church at large it would only be sensible that would act as distribution to the ministry. I will be judged for my stewwardship of HIS money. The tithe is Lord's not mine. I just handle it for Him.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by seekerman

No doubt the church supported the ministry in their giving, I agree on that. The problem, and it's a critical one, is concerning just exactly what the church was that gave support to the ministry.

The concept of what the church is, is tremendously flawed in modern day Christianity in my opinion. While the protestants may have separated themselves from much of the Roman Catholic teachings, one major error was keeping the building-based religious system of Roman Catholicism. When Paul wrote to the church in Corinth, he was writing to a group of believers, called out ones, the ekklesia. He wasn't writing concerning the support a building-based religious system with the building being labeled the church. It's so ingrained within the mindset of Christians that they never stop and think about calling a building a church. Oneness Pentecostals take it a step lower many times by labeling a building as 'bro so-and-so's church'.

Does the bible teach there is such a building-based system in which to pay tithes. Not at all, in fact it's just the opposite. Paul touched on it in Galatians concerning those who were wishing to enter into something God has completely and totally destroyed. Christianity continues to attempt to set up the tithe supported priesthood and temple and call it ministry and the building a church or temple, or house of God. It simply isn't to be that way though.

So, tithing into a building-based 'church' system isn't really tithing into the church. The question remains, where is one to place their tithe?




Me too.

Is not the HOUSE you are meeting in a building?????????????? Or any other structure? This is so foolish. Listen they recieved the Holy Ghost in the upper room of the Temple, the first notable miracle took place at the Temple where they were going to pray, the Apostles are noted preaching at the Temple. If they have a negative feeling about meeting in a religious place of worship give us chapter and verse?

[DaveC519]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Thank you for taking the time to respond. After reading your post and after reflecting a bit, I am wondering why, if Paul puts forth this teaching as a "command" for tithing, would he throw a little wrench in the system and claim that he excludes himself from this "command". It seems as though that could cause a bit of confusion for others toward this transitional teaching.

Although, at the time the epistle was written, Paul was not exercising his right to ministerial maintenance, we know he wasn't abrogating his right, either, because he had just asserted it (1Cor 9:4, 11-12).

In the OT, no one was able to be excluded - it was a "command".

True, but then again, Paul wasn't arguing for the Levitical tithe.

Do you think that your point that I highlighted is a reasonable stand to take after reading Galatians 6:6? It appears to me that the idea is to "provide" for them in the way that tithing did in the OT, but not necessarily is setting up a tithing system in the NT. "Those who are taught the word of God should provide for their teachers, sharing all good things with them." (NIV)

communicate unto him — “impart a share unto his teacher” - JFB

"In all good things - In everything that is needful for their comfortable subsistence. On the duty here enjoined see the notes at 1Co_9:11-13." - Barnes

"Communicate unto him that teacheth - Contribute to the support of the man who has dedicated himself to the work of the ministry, and who gives up his time and his life to preach the Gospel. It appears that some of the believers in Galatia could receive the Christian ministry without contributing to its support. This is both ungrateful and base." - Gill

I don't see 1Cor 9:14 and Gal 6:6 as an either/or choice. I believe they both apply, as well as 1Tim 5:17-18 and Heb 13:16.

I attended both the Catholic and Baptist Church, at different points in my life, and it seems more reasonable to give to the support of the church, who then pays it out to where it needs to go. Because, again, the tithing (if we want to go that direction for the NT church) did not support one person, it supported the whole Levitical system.

I agree, even though I believe the Levitical system is no longer valid. Christian tithes should be paid into the church to support the ministry, which includes the Bishop. But it is also the Bishop's responsibility to be a good steward of these finances. As I stated previously, they will give an account of their stewardship.

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Heb 10:31)

A Senior Pastor's FIRST care and responsibility is to the flock of God, not himself. If he truly have a shepherd's heart, then he will place the needs of the flock above his own. That does not mean his own family should be neglected, but if he is in tune, he will know the balance. And I don't believe that means he should necessarily be the poorest in all the house of God, for as Paul said, the workman is worthy of his hire (1Tim 5:18).

[DaveC519]

Originally Posted by seekerman

No doubt the church supported the ministry in their giving, I agree on that. The problem, and it's a critical one, is concerning just exactly what the church was that gave support to the ministry.

The concept of what the church is, is tremendously flawed in modern day Christianity in my opinion. While the protestants may have separated themselves from much of the Roman Catholic teachings, one major error was keeping the building-based religious system of Roman Catholicism. When Paul wrote to the church in Corinth, he was writing to a group of believers, called out ones, the ekklesia. He wasn't writing concerning the support a building-based religious system with the building being labeled the church. It's so ingrained within the mindset of Christians that they never stop and think about calling a building a church. Oneness Pentecostals take it a step lower many times by labeling a building as 'bro so-and-so's church'.

Does the bible teach there is such a building-based system in which to pay tithes. Not at all, in fact it's just the opposite. Paul touched on it in Galatians concerning those who were wishing to enter into something God has completely and totally destroyed. Christianity continues to attempt to set up the tithe supported priesthood and temple and call it ministry and the building a church or temple, or house of God. It simply isn't to be that way though.

So, tithing into a building-based 'church' system isn't really tithing into the church. The question remains, where is one to place their tithe?

I haven't found any specific verses stating that Christians should avoid using buildings as meeting places. If you've found some, please share.