A thought on tithing

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by DaveC519

Hello seekerman,

While I agree that "ekklēsia" applies to the body of believers, it appears that the location/building where they actually congregated was inconsequential. Nowhere do we see in the NT a prescription against a particular meeting place and/or building. In fact, nowhere do we see a prescription in favor of such. It simply isn't discussed, therefore, it was inconsequential. This is why I said that to argue for or against a building is to argue from silence.

I have to disagree. The pattern was to keep the gathering of the church in a house to house venue, not evolving the meeting of the church into a revised modernist Old Testament temple/priesthood system. God instructed a place for his dwelling within the people in the Old Testament system with a priesthood hierarchy within that system, but just the opposite is taught in the New Testament system. There is no 'house of God' in which to meet any more. No 'house of God' to build, maintain and support and no priesthood system to receive tithes and offer sacrifices for the people.

Yet we see that the church has evolved into such a system, mainly because of the Romanist influence which still permiates the protestant religious system. There's instruction on the church meeting, ongiving, on christian life, on prayer, on the five fold ministry, on the operating of the gifts of the spirit.....all within the body of Christ. We have a fairly clear understanding of how the church which immediately followed Jesus operated and to attempt to add to that a form of the Old Testament system has no scriptural support.

If one were interested, I suggest doing a study on the early church. What you'll find is there was no clergy/laity building-based, 'house of God' religious or economic system until the Romanists introduced it a couple of hundred years after Christ.

The thread was on tithing and the question arose concerning if a person were to tithe, where does one pay the tithe since the Old Testament system is dead and gone to live no more. The common answer is to pay it into the 'church', but the 'church' which is receiving the tithe isn't the church of the New Testament. It's a system, introduced by the Romanists, which has attempted, very successfully I might say, to reintroduce a Old Testament religious system within the body of Christ. The tithe is used to support a building-based system where much of the financial giving is to support a building which many demand to be the biggest and best because it's falsely referred to as 'the house of God' and is used two or three times a week at best. The rest of the time this 'house of God' sits dark and unused. Along with this building-based 'house of God' system there is introduced to the real church, the assembly, a modified Old Testament priesthood system. Depending on the christian religious sect, this modified Old Testament priesthood system is presented to the real church, the body of believers, the assembly, as having the power to control them, as being a priest over them and to also receive the tithe.

Again, this isn't about not tithing or giving, this is about where to give. It's not support a man made building-based 'house of God' religious system, it's to do as is instructed in scripture. Support the ministry. Give to the widows and orphans. Feed the hungry, clothe the naked. But don't give to support a type of religious system which God destroyed 2000 years ago.

[Walks_in_islam]

Epley casting Jesus aside (Jesus who never mandated that He collect a thing from those he ministered to) should you at least follow the example of Paul/Saul:

What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

Could a mandated "tithe" from the pulpit be interpreted as abuse of power? Just innocently askin'

I know that doesn't get a new Lincoln every couple of years but.........

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Nehemiah placed other Levites over the tithing chamber to disburst the money. Thus someone has to take charge that the work of God is taken care of. A real pastor will see these needs are met you mention. However the singers & muscians though at blessing are not those who sow-thresh-reap. They do not PREACH the gospel only those who PREACH the gospel are ordained to live OF the gospel.

[DaveC519]

Originally Posted by seekerman

I have to disagree. The pattern was to keep the gathering of the church in a house to house venue, not evolving the meeting of the church into a revised modernist Old Testament temple/priesthood system. God instructed a place for his dwelling within the people in the Old Testament system with a priesthood hierarchy within that system, but just the opposite is taught in the New Testament system. There is no 'house of God' in which to meet any more. No 'house of God' to build, maintain and support and no priesthood system to receive tithes and offer sacrifices for the people.

Yet we see that the church has evolved into such a system, mainly because of the Romanist influence which still permiates the protestant religious system. There's instruction on the church meeting, ongiving, on christian life, on prayer, on the five fold ministry, on the operating of the gifts of the spirit.....all within the body of Christ. We have a fairly clear understanding of how the church which immediately followed Jesus operated and to attempt to add to that a form of the Old Testament system has no scriptural support.

If one were interested, I suggest doing a study on the early church. What you'll find is there was no clergy/laity building-based, 'house of God' religious or economic system until the Romanists introduced it a couple of hundred years after Christ.

The thread was on tithing and the question arose concerning if a person were to tithe, where does one pay the tithe since the Old Testament system is dead and gone to live no more. The common answer is to pay it into the 'church', but the 'church' which is receiving the tithe isn't the church of the New Testament. It's a system, introduced by the Romanists, which has attempted, very successfully I might say, to reintroduce a Old Testament religious system within the body of Christ. The tithe is used to support a building-based system where much of the financial giving is to support a building which many demand to be the biggest and best because it's falsely referred to as 'the house of God' and is used two or three times a week at best. The rest of the time this 'house of God' sits dark and unused. Along with this building-based 'house of God' system there is introduced to the real church, the assembly, a modified Old Testament priesthood system. Depending on the christian religious sect, this modified Old Testament priesthood system is presented to the real church, the body of believers, the assembly, as having the power to control them, as being a priest over them and to also receive the tithe.

Again, this isn't about not tithing or giving, this is about where to give. It's not support a man made building-based 'house of God' religious system, it's to do as is instructed in scripture. Support the ministry. Give to the widows and orphans. Feed the hungry, clothe the naked. But don't give to support a type of religious system which God destroyed 2000 years ago.

I agree that there is no NT Christian religious system based upon a particular building or type of building. I have yet to find a verse which prohibits meeting outside of a house, or which prescribes the necessity of meeting within a house. On the rest of your comments, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Steve Epley]

Again the NT church was birthed in the upper room of the Temple.
The first motable miracle and evidently the hour of prayer took place at the temple.
The apostles and early church met at the temple.
All this is found in the Book of Acts.
Did they also meet in homes? Yes.
There is no scripture forbidding a local meeting house and there are scriptures as I have given that shows the early church did meeting in the Temple.(evidently in the court of the women).

[Lafon]

Doctrine: defined as a set of beliefs or principles that are held and taught.

Hebrews 6:1-2 sets forth the elementary teachings of Jesus Christ:

“Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection: not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith towards God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.”

Does anyone find it strange that “tithing” is not mentioned as an integral element of Christ’s teachings?

How its possible for one to interpret the “tithes,” an ordinace of the Law, as being money, rather than that which it truly was; a portion of the “produce” and of the “flocks/herds” of the tribes of Israel (other than the Levites, of course, who possessed no land and to whom the “tithes” were given)?

Perhaps my views concerning this issue is as amiss as "two boys a'kissing" (if I might use a favorite saying of Bro Epley), but wasn't the "giving" (not "tithes") by the Christians of the early church, for the purpose of aiding the welfare of the poorer saints, the widows, orphans, as well as to provide financial support for those who travelled to distant locations to proselyte the unsaved and establish other churches?

Just asking......

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Again the NT church was birthed in the upper room of the Temple.
The first motable miracle and evidently the hour of prayer took place at the temple.
The apostles and early church met at the temple.
All this is found in the Book of Acts.
Did they also meet in homes? Yes.
There is no scripture forbidding a local meeting house and there are scriptures as I have given that shows the early church did meeting in the Temple.(evidently in the court of the women).

The temple made with hands was destroyed for it was not needed. Building 'temples' made with hands isn't part of the New Testament church system. There is no New Testament 'house of God', 'temple', 'church building', or any religious structure in which to meet God as it was under the Old Testament system.

Building structures and having the people serve them within a man made priesthood system is simply man attempting to return to the Old Testament system, placing burdens on them that God eliminated. You wish for people to come to your building which you identify as a 'church', pay you tithe and operate according to a modified Old Testament religious system introduced by the Romanists.

Nothing in the New Testament church suggests such a system.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Again the NT church was birthed in the upper room of the Temple.
The first motable miracle and evidently the hour of prayer took place at the temple.
The apostles and early church met at the temple.
All this is found in the Book of Acts.
Did they also meet in homes? Yes.
There is no scripture forbidding a local meeting house and there are scriptures as I have given that shows the early church did meeting in the Temple.(evidently in the court of the women).

Bro Epley, I know you don't want to hear this, however, if we forsake all of the fancy buildings in which we assemble to worship, and "do church" in the homes of the saints instead; as well as rid ourselves of a paid clergy and his/her staff, perhaps we can begin to use the "giving" of the saints as did the saints of the First Century.

Instead of using the financial resources which the saints "give" in the assemblies today n this manner, as well as the "tithes" they are commanded to provide the clergy, we find that it is often those to whom we should be assisting financially that are required to give of their limited financial resources to maintain a building and a paid glergy instead.

We have it all backwards, or so it seems to me!

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by seekerman

The temple made with hands was destroyed for it was not needed. Building 'temples' made with hands isn't part of the New Testament church system. There is no New Testament 'house of God', 'temple', 'church building', or any religious structure in which to meet God as it was under the Old Testament system.

Building structures and having the people serve them within a man made priesthood system is simply man attempting to return to the Old Testament system, placing burdens on them that God eliminated. You wish for people to come to your building which you identify as a 'church', pay you tithe and operate according to a modified Old Testament religious system introduced by the Romanists.

Nothing in the New Testament church suggests such a system.

I could not agree with you more!

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

"When ye come together therefore into ONE place" 1Cor.11:20
That 'ONE place" was called the church of God. 1Cor.11:22
V34 let him eat at HOME being distinquished from the church.
"Yet IN the Church" 1Cor.14:19
"If the whole church be come together in ONE place"1Cor. 14:23
"when ye come together"14:27
"let him keep silence IN the church"14:28"
"let them keep silence IN the churches"14:34
"let them ask their husbands AT HOME for it is a shame for a woman to speak IN THE CHURCH" 14:35 home and church again contrasted
"how to behave thyself IN THE HOUSE OF GOD" 1Tim3:15
Might need quit studing Roman history and read your Bible. Just saying.

Great post!

Now if a city only has a few saints, it might be in their best interest to hold church in a home. Been there, done that. But the church we go to now have four or five hundred members. I don't believe God wants me to choose two or three to be in service with. Besides, we have been having dozens of new visitors in the last few months. Impossible if we were having church in a home!

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by Sarah

Great post!

Now if a city only has a few saints, it might be in their best interest to hold church in a home. Been there, done that. But the church we go to now have four or five hundred members. I don't believe God wants me to choose two or three to be in service with. Besides, we have been having dozens of new visitors in the last few months. Impossible if we were having church in a home!

As for paying tithes...we can give our ten percent, or give ALL, as they did in the New Testament!