A thought on tithing

[DaveC519]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

(I Corinthians 9:14)

Hello AreYouReady,

Please see my comments here: http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...8&postcount=27

The command was given to the church itself to support the ministry.

Let's finish this in the context it was written in.

15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

Good idea... let's talk about the context. As I stated previously, although Paul did not exercise his right to ministerial maintenance, he also did not abrogate it, either, for he very specifically argued for that right (1Cor 9:4, 12). His entire argument from verses 1-14 would be moot if he was not in fact arguing in favor of this right.

And why did Paul choose not to exercise his right? Simply because he was trying to prove a point, that he wasn't in it for the money. He had been accused of that, and he was trying to prove a point that it wasn't true. How do we know this was going on? See verse 3. Was it the Gentile contingent of the Corinthian church who was questioning his motives? No, it was the converted Jews. Again, how do we know this? Because Paul moves from the general examples of verse 7 to specific examples found in the Law (vs. 8-10; 13). Gentiles wouldn't have known of these examples from the Law unless they had been God-fearers attending the synagogue next door to the church. And why were the Jewish converts questioning Paul's motives? Because they knew that ministerial maintenance was due the Levitical priesthood only. But Paul was establishing a new Christian paradigm based upon the Lord's commandment.

So if a man/woman lives OF the gospel, we must take note of what Jesus says how to live when preaching the gospel.

Matthew 16:24 ¶Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,
11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you..

THIS is how Jesus described living OF the gospel.

Paul, in 1Cor 9, gives the church some examples of how he defines living OF the gospel: he uses the examples of soldiers, farmers and shepherds all receiving benefits of their labors (vs. 7). He then tells the church point blank that if he had sown spiritual things among them, it is his right to reap their "carnal things" (vs. 11).

There was never a time where Jesus told the disciples to take money. The disciples were not picked because they were businessmen, as someone here suggested. Jesus did NOT pick them for their business sense. He searched their heart for the fact that they would serve God, that they would deny themselves and pick up their cross. Except for one...who had selfish betrayal in his heart against God. Jesus knew it and picked Judas for that purpose because it was the will of God for the Lamb to be slain for the redeeming of His blood for all of our sins.

Peter - Fisherman
Andrew - Fisherman
James (the elder) - Fisherman
John - Fisherman
Matthew - Tax Collector
Simon - Political Activist

Philip - Fisherman
James (the younger) -
Judas Iscariot - Accountant
Thomas -
Thaddeus -
Bartholemew - Missionary - of noble birth
Matthias (after Judas) -

Heh. The only one who actually had any business sense was...Judas Iscariot...and we all have read what Judas did and what happened to him. And perhaps Bartholemew..who was of noble birth.

And it was precisely because these were not businessmen that the command (vs. 14) was given to the church to support the ministry IN LIKE MANNER as the Levitical priesthood had been partakers of the altar (vs. 13).

And the fact that Jesus, the Christ himself was a lowly carpenter who, when he started his ministry lived of the people who cared for him. He took no tithes...and yet ...he could have, had it been God's will for him to live like that. After all, He is after the High Priestly order of Melchizedek. Yet, Jesus chose to believe God for every need in His earthly flesh.

Actually, during his earthly ministry, Jesus did not serve as our High Priest after the order of Melchisidec. It was only after he ascended to heaven that this began (Heb 8:4).

And BTW, many of those disciples you listed above didn't seem to have a problem collecting money from the Corinthian church (vs. 12). They fully exercised their power to be supported while there- according to Paul.

[DaveC519]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

We are the Body of Christ. Give to where you are attending church. I have a problem with people that week in and week out attend where I pastor, would expect a visit in the hospital when sick, will turn to our staff and congregation when there was a death or a wedding or trouble in their marriage or a loved one that needed counseling, but won't support the church financially. Some will say their money goes to some other ministry or charity, but it's really about control.

I'm saying if you are a member of a church, you should support that church. If you dont like the way finances are handled there, go somewhere where you can feel good about the financial set up. But don't attend a church simply because you grew up there, or because your friends and family go there or for whatever reason and not support it financially. It's not right.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Sam

recently a church a couple hours from here had some problems and there eventually was a split. One member and his family seemed to be the source of it. Someone who handled the money for that church mentioned to me that the offending person and his wife "were tippers and not tithers,"

I realize the "giving all" can be a copout.

I heard of one guy who said, "I don't give a tenth to my church. I do more than that. Why I bet I give a twentieth of a thirtieth."

As a young man I had a friend who was the minister of a large Church of Christ we was arguing the tithing subject and he said really in the NT the believer should give more than a tenth. So I asked him do the members of the Church of Christ do that? He paused then said not where I minister.

[AreYouReady?]

hello Dave.

Thanks for your discussion.

However, scripture twisting is a fine art many preachers use to convince people that they should practice the levitical law of tithing.

Even though I do not agree with you, you do make some fine points in your discussion...points I've heard for 35 years, but you give no clear scriptures that 'commands' tithing in the New Testament church. Corinthians 9 is not a command for tithing.

But even if the Bible used the word tithe in these passages...you would get produce and animals. Many preachers would not accept that.

I am well aware that Jesus did not practice the Melchizedek priesthood while he walked this earth. He never commanded tithing either. And you will not read where He or his disciples gave a tithe while he ministered.

I feel pretty sure that the disciples took goods and lived off the giving of people. The bible does not say they got paid in silver or gold. Peter said he had none. Jesus lived what people gave to him also. People willingly shared what they had back then. The attitude of giving was with a cheerful heart...not out of necessity.

Problem is, most preachers today would not live like Jesus or the Apostles or accept anything other than silver and gold, or as in our case right now, the legal tender of federal reserve notes. I've heard it preach that if you don't have money for the rent...tithe anyway. That is not even scriptural. I Peter 5:2 is the epitome of a preacher who will preach without a monetary reward. (Somehow I just believe that God would take good care of these type of preachers)


The rest of what I was going to post ... well many of you who preach tithes would not accept the words I would have written.

You couldn't take it.



So I felt it was best to leave the rest off.



.

[Truthseeker]

No one teache's biblical tithes today only them that think they do.

[Steve Epley]

Foreign Missionaries these non-tithers has sent? 0!
Number of Evangelists these non-tithers have kept on the field? 0!
And the list goes on.
They give their ALL. They take all from their left pocket and put it in their right pocket.
All I have met are spiritual hobos and hitchhikers.
Don't worry about Roman Catholics these folks are ROAMING Pentecostals.

[Truthseeker]

Hey I don't believe in tithing and have regularly given to missions so we send some!

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Hey I don't believe in tithing and have regularly given to missions so we send some!

You are the exception not the rule according to those I have been around.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

You are the exception not the rule according to those I have been around.

one thing we all.should agree on is we all should be givers.

[The Lemon]

My wife and I have always been givers, ever since we first came into the church 20-years ago.

Over the years I have sometimes given much more then 10%, as there were needs. There have been times where we have modified our giving as we had needs to meet...but never did we not give, and never did we simply "tip".

To this day we give hundreds of dollars on a monthly basis, and feel blessed to do so. Having said that, I have tried my best to stop focusing so much on the law of 10%, and have tried to instead give out of a cheerful heart not expecting a "return" on my giving - but be thankful to meet a need...anywhere we can.

I fear for those who refuse to give, and give liberaly, I wonder where their heart is, and why, if the Lord has blessed them, that they covet. I want to have a sensitive spirit and heart, I want to do my best to make a difference.

My opinion on the structure of modern day church is different then many of my peers and brothers and sisters. But where we do agree is where I believe it counts.