A thought on tithing

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Most folks who talk about giving ALL give little or nothing. I have been around folks who talk like this all my life. The whole bunch together wouldn't give enough to rent a phone booth to have church. You would need candles for service because what they give would pay a $20 light bill. The "ALL givers" give nothing. God bless their stingy hearts.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

The church I pastor pays me a fixed salary. We operate the church with tithe monies as well, paying staff, insurance, maintenance, supplies, etc.

My daughter's church operates that way as well.

We have always tithed and we give not only money, but we purchase floral arrangements, make costumes/puppets and props for children's church, etc. If I see the kitchen in need of something, I will often times purchase those items. I just wish people would learn to take care of things. That is another subject.... argh!!

And it would be "fund" raiser, not "fun". Glad you responded to my post. I need to make a New Year's Resolution to proof read before I hit submit. But, will I? I doubt it.

[Steve Epley]

I am reluctant to post this because giving to me is such a devotional worship between myself and God and I don't want to be seen as boasting because EVERYTHING I have He has given to me. But 10% has been a bare minimum of what I have given through the years. Real giving starts above that.

[Nitehawk013]

The staunchest supporters of the tithing doctrine are *SURPRISE* those who make a living off those they can scare/manipulate/convince to give 10% to them.

That may not be telling to some, but it is to me. That doesn't mean they are evil or just in it for the money, but as the saying goes...follow the money. If I made my living off others giving, I would want to find a way to get them to give all the time as well. Henc e, "you'll be cursed or go to hell if you don't give your tithes to the Lord(read:Pastor of the church)".

[Steve Epley]

It is easy for you arm chair theologians who mostly never make a prayer meeting yourselves muchless every pray anyone else through to slander every good preacher who has given his life-energy-time into the ministry and the caring of others. Some folks have never stayed up all night in hospital rooms unless it was their friends or families. They would never cancel their vacations or family gatherings to go help a saint in trouble or even a member of a saint's family who doesn't come to church. It is us these low down money loving preaching who during holidays are in the waiting rooms comforting the saints. It was us who are in it for filthy lucre sake who our cancel wive's anniversaries and childrens birthdays to encourage folks and many times never get a thank you.
It is us who do without when a need arises at the church and say well we do it another time.
It is those lazy good for nothing preachers who visit the saints family members in jails. Attend wakes and funerals of folks we have never met. Drive untold hours and hundreds of miles to visit and encourage ungrateful folks who have never given you one nickle.
It is we those low down preachers who marry folks-bury folks-counsel folks for free and are happy to do.
It is we us selfish preachers who pay folks rent, make their car payments,"loan" them money(never to get it back) buy their kids shoes and clothes. Give them money to take their wife out for their special occations.
Call one of these armchair minister critics up at 3 in the morning or during supper and see how much sympathy you get?
You guys wouldn't make it a week following a real preacher around. Yes some are selfish and some are frauds. Ans sadly some fail.
Every word a preacher says is scrutized, his wife is never perfect enough, his children are raised in fish bowls and are targets for the disgruntled.
Some of us do what we do NOT because of what we get through a tithing box but we do it because we are called and love the people of God.
Just saying. God bless your stingy heart.

[KeptByTheWord]

Bro. Epley,

Tithing was done away with on the cross. The veil in the temple was rent, there was no longer any need for the priesthood, as Christ had become our eternal High Priest. There would be no more need for sacrifices, and taking care of the Levitical priesthood.

All believers now are kings, and priests. 1 Peter 2:5, I Peter 2:9, Rev. 1:6

We are all part of the priesthood now, not just a few of us. Not just the "ministry" or the pastors/preachers.

So, because the need for a priesthood changed at Calvary, so did tithing change. Tithing was meant to support the priesthood. Now we are all priests.

However, we see a mindset in the early church of giving. Yes, tithing was no longer necessary, but giving of course was their first priority. They gave until it hurt them. Many, in the beginning, sold all they had and gave it to the church. Giving was not a problem for them at all. They were not taught to only give 10% and be done. Paul taught them to give as the Lord had prospered them.

Read 1 Cor. 16:1-2
1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

This would have been a perfect opportunity for Paul to teach tithing, as he was instructing the saints on giving. But he never, not once, in all his writings mentions tithing as the standard for the church. Yet, giving as the Lord has prospered you... that is the standard set by Paul, and one that the church should now live by.

Bro. Epley, I agree with you, people who don't give anything at all are generally the ones who expect the most out of the pastor of a church. They have never learned it is better to give than to receive.

You look at the welfare state that we have in this country today, where people expect the government to take care of them, but could care less about trying to return anything back from what they've received. A giving mentality is sadly lacking in many hearts.

As believers, we should not be told how much to give, or what to give, but we should understand that it is better to give than to receive. When our hearts are truly thankful, and appreciative to the Lord for His many blessings, our hands will open up, and our hearts will give joyfully. 10% won't be enough. You will want to give more.

But the important thing is to remember that in giving, we are to take care of those who are less fortunate than ourselves.

James 1:27 says it so well...
"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this: To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."

True religion is taking care of those who are less fortunate than ourselves, and keeping ourselves unspotted from the world. If we would undertake those two directives in our lives.... giving would not ever be a problem. Helping a brother in need would not be an issue.

But supporting a wealthy minister who takes in much more than he needs from his church, taking expensive vacations, living in a mansion, driving an fancy vehicle... while many of his congregants can't even afford to pay a light bill... that is not pure religion.

And that is what so many.... NOT ALL.... but so many pastors have done.... they have allowed the money coming in to go into their pocketbooks, instead of helping those in need.

Bro. Epley, I truly believe you are not one of the above pastors I just mentioned. I believe every word you said, that you are there to help the saints in your congregation, and you are pouring yourself out to them.

Yet, I have one issue with your comments... You are doing the work the Lord called all of us do though... not just a pastor.

As saints, we are to take care of one another... it would be great if you could begin to teach your church that you are not the only one who can do these things... but all of us are kings and priests unto the Lord, (Rev. 1:7) and all of us need to take care of one another.

Maybe you could teach on giving instead of tithing, and see what happens.... you are already leading by example... perhaps a different mindest is all your people need to really believe that they can do it themselves... that they can be available ... and in fact need to be... to help their brother or sister in need....

Maybe, just maybe.... you wouldn't be the only one having to do all these things, but the sweet people in your congregation could also begin to learn the joys of giving, without expecting to receive anything in return.

Yes, it is much better to give than to receive... and I am thankful that the heart of giving that the Lord has shown me to be so necessary is what pure religion, undefiled before God is really all about.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

The staunchest supporters of the tithing doctrine are *SURPRISE* those who make a living off those they can scare/manipulate/convince to give 10% to them.

That may not be telling to some, but it is to me. That doesn't mean they are evil or just in it for the money, but as the saying goes...follow the money. If I made my living off others giving, I would want to find a way to get them to give all the time as well. Henc e, "you'll be cursed or go to hell if you don't give your tithes to the Lord(read:Pastor of the church)".

You need to believe that I guess to demonize those who believe in tithing. Yes there are abusers ofnthe principle, just as there are those who abuse other Biblical principles. But the abuse of some doesn't eliminate the blessedness of the true act of giving to God what belongs to Him, doing it with a cheerful spirit, and taking God at His Word. I have never told a single person they are going to hell if they don't tithe. Gods Word declare that those who aren't generous givers are cursed...and those that give liberally are blessed. That's pretty plain in scripture. But I do t use scare tactics to get people to give.

We might show a picture on the screen of a family we have recently served, or prayed for, or won to the Lord with their testimony, etc before receiving the tithes and offerings and we tell people that when they give to this church these are some of the many unseen ways their dollars are making a difference. We try to inspire people to give to the vision of the church. Also we will give testimonies of people who gave and then were blessed. For instance a family in our church whose husband/father was out of work when they joined our church. He's been out of work for a year and a half. One Sunday after I preached a sermon about the idol of greed which included the issue of giving, they felt convicted they weren't financially contributing. They stepped out in faith and began tithing. Within two weeks the husband got a job and has been working full time since.

These are the ways we attempt to motivate people to give. Not out of guilt and condemnation, but out of faith and a right spirit.

I would rather be guilty of arguing in favor of giving than to embrace an attitude that is antagonistic toward giving.

[navygoat1998]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

It is easy for you arm chair theologians who mostly never make a prayer meeting yourselves muchless every pray anyone else through to slander every good preacher who has given his life-energy-time into the ministry and the caring of others. Some folks have never stayed up all night in hospital rooms unless it was their friends or families. They would never cancel their vacations or family gatherings to go help a saint in trouble or even a member of a saint's family who doesn't come to church. It is us these low down money loving preaching who during holidays are in the waiting rooms comforting the saints. It was us who are in it for filthy lucre sake who our cancel wive's anniversaries and childrens birthdays to encourage folks and many times never get a thank you.
It is us who do without when a need arises at the church and say well we do it another time.
It is those lazy good for nothing preachers who visit the saints family members in jails. Attend wakes and funerals of folks we have never met. Drive untold hours and hundreds of miles to visit and encourage ungrateful folks who have never given you one nickle.
It is we those low down preachers who marry folks-bury folks-counsel folks for free and are happy to do.
It is we us selfish preachers who pay folks rent, make their car payments,"loan" them money(never to get it back) buy their kids shoes and clothes. Give them money to take their wife out for their special occations.
Call one of these armchair minister critics up at 3 in the morning or during supper and see how much sympathy you get?
You guys wouldn't make it a week following a real preacher around. Yes some are selfish and some are frauds. Ans sadly some fail.
Every word a preacher says is scrutized, his wife is never perfect enough, his children are raised in fish bowls and are targets for the disgruntled.
Some of us do what we do NOT because of what we get through a tithing box but we do it because we are called and love the people of God.
Just saying. God bless your stingy heart.

Elder We tithe unto the Lord and we are faithful to the house of God. My wife and I have been blessed in so many ways. We sew into what God is doing and God honors our faithfulness. This has happened while in Oneness Pentecost and while we in the Assemblies. He has shown us His hand and heart towards us.

We try and bless our pastor and his wife for we know he labors among us and its important to love on them. I praise God for not having that calling on my life. My Bible tells me that preacher/teachers will be judged more harsher.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

It is easy for you arm chair theologians who mostly never make a prayer meeting yourselves muchless every pray anyone else through to slander every good preacher who has given his life-energy-time into the ministry and the caring of others. Some folks have never stayed up all night in hospital rooms unless it was their friends or families. They would never cancel their vacations or family gatherings to go help a saint in trouble or even a member of a saint's family who doesn't come to church. It is us these low down money loving preaching who during holidays are in the waiting rooms comforting the saints. It was us who are in it for filthy lucre sake who our cancel wive's anniversaries and childrens birthdays to encourage folks and many times never get a thank you.
It is us who do without when a need arises at the church and say well we do it another time.
It is those lazy good for nothing preachers who visit the saints family members in jails. Attend wakes and funerals of folks we have never met. Drive untold hours and hundreds of miles to visit and encourage ungrateful folks who have never given you one nickle.
It is we those low down preachers who marry folks-bury folks-counsel folks for free and are happy to do.
It is we us selfish preachers who pay folks rent, make their car payments,"loan" them money(never to get it back) buy their kids shoes and clothes. Give them money to take their wife out for their special occations.
Call one of these armchair minister critics up at 3 in the morning or during supper and see how much sympathy you get?
You guys wouldn't make it a week following a real preacher around. Yes some are selfish and some are frauds. Ans sadly some fail.
Every word a preacher says is scrutized, his wife is never perfect enough, his children are raised in fish bowls and are targets for the disgruntled.
Some of us do what we do NOT because of what we get through a tithing box but we do it because we are called and love the people of God.
Just saying. God bless your stingy heart.

Hammer meet nail...

Thank you...

[Nitehawk013]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

It is easy for you arm chair theologians who mostly never make a prayer meeting yourselves muchless every pray anyone else through to slander every good preacher who has given his life-energy-time into the ministry and the caring of others. Some folks have never stayed up all night in hospital rooms unless it was their friends or families. They would never cancel their vacations or family gatherings to go help a saint in trouble or even a member of a saint's family who doesn't come to church. It is us these low down money loving preaching who during holidays are in the waiting rooms comforting the saints. It was us who are in it for filthy lucre sake who our cancel wive's anniversaries and childrens birthdays to encourage folks and many times never get a thank you.
It is us who do without when a need arises at the church and say well we do it another time.
It is those lazy good for nothing preachers who visit the saints family members in jails. Attend wakes and funerals of folks we have never met. Drive untold hours and hundreds of miles to visit and encourage ungrateful folks who have never given you one nickle.
It is we those low down preachers who marry folks-bury folks-counsel folks for free and are happy to do.
It is we us selfish preachers who pay folks rent, make their car payments,"loan" them money(never to get it back) buy their kids shoes and clothes. Give them money to take their wife out for their special occations.
Call one of these armchair minister critics up at 3 in the morning or during supper and see how much sympathy you get?
You guys wouldn't make it a week following a real preacher around. Yes some are selfish and some are frauds. Ans sadly some fail.
Every word a preacher says is scrutized, his wife is never perfect enough, his children are raised in fish bowls and are targets for the disgruntled.
Some of us do what we do NOT because of what we get through a tithing box but we do it because we are called and love the people of God.
Just saying. God bless your stingy heart.

Yes thats it. Same ol tactics. If you can't convince with hermeneutics or apologetics of the doctrine itself, attack those who disagree with you.

Listen, not ONE person has said tithe preachers are evil, hirlings, or any of the other things you just implied. Even if someone had, your little rant was a non sequitur. It had nothign to do with the issue. The sad sad story of what poor ol preacher go through does NOT validate a terrible doctrine like the tithing doctrine. Nor does attempting to malign the character of those who oppose it.

I'm no arm chair theologian. I take my studies VERY seriously, even if it means I must disagree with teachings that have been held by my church for generations. If I were simply an "arm chair theologian" I wouldn't put myself through the scorn and unmeritted rebukes I have put up with over the fact that unlike MOST Apostolic preachers/Pastor I know I want to be right BIBLICALLY, not just a water carrier for the "movement". And let's not get into what one's prayer life is or isn't. I suppose many people do pray more than others. As my professor at Bible college said, it doesn't matter if you can pray hours a day and talk in tongues liek a china man. If you don't know the book no amount of prayer can make up for it.

The sad part is that you are so anxious to defend the "tradition" and many a preachers livlihood that you can't step away and objectively look at the doctrine, where it came from, the history of it and then when and how it was applied to the modern church. Instead, you feel much more comfortable just attacking those who dare challenge the doctrine or "the man of God".

The goo dnews is that your generation, and those of that mentality, are indeed aging right out of the spotlight, making way for a generation after them that hopfully is FAR more interested in what the Bible and history actuially teaches and less about what grandpa or some Pastor with a 5th grade education screamed was "thus saith the Lord".