A thought on tithing

[deacon blues]

Who are these wealthy preachers I keep hearing about? Let's see, until three months ago my wife was driving a 1999 GMC Yukon, paid for, but high mileage and getting to the place where maintenance was getting expensive. We traded it in for 2010 Honda Civic. I drive a 2001 Nissan Altima with 200K+ miles. We live in a church parsonage. We have a son in the Air Force, a middle school daughter, an elementary aged son. We take a couple of vacations a year, usually to see relatives, once in a while maybe to Florida or tourist attraction. Always done on the cheap. I haven't bought a new suit in about 5 years. I've got a little retirement IRA going that isn't doing so hot right now b/c of economy. My wife works.

I know there are some high roller preachers out there, but for every one that exists there are 50 that live more like we do. And some pastors that look like they are wealthy early on in ministry sacrificed and did without and lived in the church and didn't have a lot and now after 30 or 40 years they are being blessed for their faithfulness and service to people. Sometimes preachers are wise with their money and they've made smart investments and have saved wisely. Stop judging preachers and what they have and believe that God sees those who are embezzling and abusing the church funds and those that are legit.

[Nitehawk013]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

You need to believe that I guess to demonize those who believe in tithing. Yes there are abusers ofnthe principle, just as there are those who abuse other Biblical principles. But the abuse of some doesn't eliminate the blessedness of the true act of giving to God what belongs to Him, doing it with a cheerful spirit, and taking God at His Word. I have never told a single person they are going to hell if they don't tithe. Gods Word declare that those who aren't generous givers are cursed...and those that give liberally are blessed. That's pretty plain in scripture. But I do t use scare tactics to get people to give.

We might show a picture on the screen of a family we have recently served, or prayed for, or won to the Lord with their testimony, etc before receiving the tithes and offerings and we tell people that when they give to this church these are some of the many unseen ways their dollars are making a difference. We try to inspire people to give to the vision of the church. Also we will give testimonies of people who gave and then were blessed. For instance a family in our church whose husband/father was out of work when they joined our church. He's been out of work for a year and a half. One Sunday after I preached a sermon about the idol of greed which included the issue of giving, they felt convicted they weren't financially contributing. They stepped out in faith and began tithing. Within two weeks the husband got a job and has been working full time since.

These are the ways we attempt to motivate people to give. Not out of guilt and condemnation, but out of faith and a right spirit.

I would rather be guilty of arguing in favor of giving than to embrace an attitude that is antagonistic toward giving.

Bro..there is NO MORE curse. Either all the curses of the law were nailed to the cross of NONE were.

Further, for every "testimony" example liek the one you gave there are dozens who are never told that do not work out that way. For every person who paid their tithe when they didn't have the money and miraculously had someone provide for them, there are multiples who give that tithe instead of paying their bills of buying food who go without or see that bill go delinquent. The light is shined on those who have the testimony, no opportunity is given to those who give and see no miraculous provision in return. So of course you slant the data to support your position. YOU GIVE NO VOICE TO THOSE WHO SAW THE OPPOSITE HAPPEN! For instance, I'll see your story and give you one. A family in our church has been giving in every special offering and paying tithes. They both have grown up in church and are raising their kids in church. The husband hasn't had a job, a real job, in years. They struggle every single month. They never have anything. They had vehicles on the verge of the scrap heap all the time until an uncle died and gave them a new van in his will. Yet they give give give. So where's their miracle provision? Where's his job? There are far more of these stories I would wager than you can even imagine because these stories don't get any attention.

The principle is true. If you give, you will receive. You sow...then you reap. God blesses the giver. NO question. There is no command nor curse though. That is just a bad doctrine meant to scare people into giving. People ought to give. They ought to support the church. If they want a full time pastor, then they ought to understand that they are the ones responsible to pay his salary. There is no legitimacy to the tithing doctrine though. It is OT and obselete.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

Yes thats it. Same ol tactics. If you can't convince with hermeneutics or apologetics of the doctrine itself, attack those who disagree with you.

Listen, not ONE person has said tithe preachers are evil, hirlings, or any of the other things you just implied. Even if someone had, your little rant was a non sequitur. It had nothign to do with the issue. The sad sad story of what poor ol preacher go through does NOT validate a terrible doctrine like the tithing doctrine. Nor does attempting to malign the character of those who oppose it.

I'm no arm chair theologian. I take my studies VERY seriously, even if it means I must disagree with teachings that have been held by my church for generations. If I were simply an "arm chair theologian" I wouldn't put myself through the scorn and unmeritted rebukes I have put up with over the fact that unlike MOST Apostolic preachers/Pastor I know I want to be right BIBLICALLY, not just a water carrier for the "movement". And let's not get into what one's prayer life is or isn't. I suppose many people do pray more than others. As my professor at Bible college said, it doesn't matter if you can pray hours a day and talk in tongues liek a china man. If you don't know the book no amount of prayer can make up for it.

The sad part is that you are so anxious to defend the "tradition" and many a preachers livlihood that you can't step away and objectively look at the doctrine, where it came from, the history of it and then when and how it was applied to the modern church. Instead, you feel much more comfortable just attacking those who dare challenge the doctrine or "the man of God".

The goo dnews is that your generation, and those of that mentality, are indeed aging right out of the spotlight, making way for a generation after them that hopfully is FAR more interested in what the Bible and history actuially teaches and less about what grandpa or some Pastor with a 5th grade education screamed was "thus saith the Lord".

So Nite, if all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable, what is the underlying principle of Malachi 3 where God says that He had been robbed of tithes and offerings? What is the profitable principle of God saying "try me"? I don't believe tithing is a matter of salvation as I have heard some preachers preach, but to say that the NT church didn't practice tithing or giving to support ministry and the work of the Church isn't accurate either.

And the experience I have seen is that people that resist tithing are the least generous people overall anyway. People that are faithful givers arent contentious, have a good spirit about giving and tend to be fulfilled people with blessed lives. People I pastor that give very little or nothing at all continually struggle financially, life in general seems to be a struggle and they seem to be very inconsistent in a lot of other areas of life. You usually can't count on them in a lot of other areas.

[KeptByTheWord]

Bro. Deacon Blues....

Me thinks you protest too much... I'll include you in my list of pastors I know who probably sacrifice everything they have in order to further the work of the Lord. I really see your heart in your posts, that you truly care, and love the work of the Lord, and it is a ministry of love for you. And I believe that you are giving as unto the Lord, and not because you have to.

But you are refusing to see the other side of the coin that is being discussed here. Just because YOU don't do these things, doesn't mean it isn't being done. Be honest with yourself.... how many preachers/pastors do you know that live way above the means of the people in their church? There is no problem in scripture with a minister receiving honor where honor is due, and being helped by the people of the church, however Paul makes it very clear that the ministry is there to support the needs of the church, and the people, and if money begins to come in that goes beyond supporting those needs, that money needs to go outside the church walls to help the widows, the fatherless, the orphans, the poor.... those who have nothing.

Can you say that of your church? What is your church doing to support those with the "extra" that comes in after the bills are paid?

This is the question we all need to ask even of ourselves...what are we ourselves doing with the extra that God has blessed us? Have we helped someone today with that money, or have we spent that money on something new for ourselves?

I am not afraid to look at my own life seriously, and question ... what am I doing with the extra, with what God has blessed me with? Have I helped anyone in need today? Have I done anything that costs me something... to help someone in need?

I won't brag on the things I have done, but it is a question I ask myself each day, and our family gives to those around us, to families who don't know us anonymously, to the Salvation Army, and to those in our lives who minister to us... we give to our parents who are elderly and in need of extra $$ because they are now feeble and unable to work.... I view this as truly the giving spirit that the Lord has asked of us.

Giving is a standard that comes with the life of Christ living within us... it is much better to give than to receive....

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

Bro..there is NO MORE curse. Either all the curses of the law were nailed to the cross of NONE were.

Further, for every "testimony" example liek the one you gave there are dozens who are never told that do not work out that way. For every person who paid their tithe when they didn't have the money and miraculously had someone provide for them, there are multiples who give that tithe instead of paying their bills of buying food who go without or see that bill go delinquent. The light is shined on those who have the testimony, no opportunity is given to those who give and see no miraculous provision in return. So of course you slant the data to support your position. YOU GIVE NO VOICE TO THOSE WHO SAW THE OPPOSITE HAPPEN! For instance, I'll see your story and give you one. A family in our church has been giving in every special offering and paying tithes. They both have grown up in church and are raising their kids in church. The husband hasn't had a job, a real job, in years. They struggle every single month. They never have anything. They had vehicles on the verge of the scrap heap all the time until an uncle died and gave them a new van in his will. Yet they give give give. So where's their miracle provision? Where's his job? There are far more of these stories I would wager than you can even imagine because these stories don't get any attention.

The principle is true. If you give, you will receive. You sow...then you reap. God blesses the giver. NO question. There is no command nor curse though. That is just a bad doctrine meant to scare people into giving. People ought to give. They ought to support the church. If they want a full time pastor, then they ought to understand that they are the ones responsible to pay his salary. There is no legitimacy to the tithing doctrine though. It is OT and obselete.

I have never encouraged anyone to give and not pay bills or to forgo feeding their families. I have never had anyone approach me and tell me, "I give and give and give and God doesn't provide". I don't tell people they are cursed either. But if you're life isn't blessed by being a giver, then what is the alternative? Is it a sin to not give? If it isn't what is it then? If it is a sin, doesn't sin open the door to consequences? Call it a curse, call consequences, call it something else but I believe a person who withholds opportunities to give---and sometimes to give sacrificially---does not live a blessed life.

We had a young lady who had no family in church but was faithful in attendance and giving. She was faced with a bill to be paid or to give her tithes. She chose of her own free will to ignore the bill and give her tithes. Later that week she got a check in the mail for $1,000 from a relative that she was totally not expecting. Giving has consequences---good ones. Stinginess has consequences---bad ones. Still God is better to us than we deserve and he's good to all of us whether we are giving or not. It's just that I see that the liberal souls are made fat.

And the reward of giving exceeds financial blessing. Prospering has so much more to do with overall quality of life than dollars and cents. I agree that a doctrine of condemnation and guilt connected to giving isn't Biblical, but a teaching of right attitudes and spirits about giving certainly is Biblical.

[Nitehawk013]

Malachi 3 has been explained a hundred times on this forum alone.

First, thing to understadning it...it is an OT word to the Levites. This is no longer the OT and the Levitical priesthood no longer exists. There is NO way to "rob God" now because even if you did try to apply the tithe aspect of the verse to us, we aren't Levites. There is NO WAY to apply this verse to the church using proper hermeneutics. Any decent student of systematic theology could tell you that.

And again, arguing form your experience is subjective, not objective. YOU have experienced it to be that way. That doesn't make it so. I could argue the opposite. I think tithing is a terrible doctrine, yet my wife an I give to our church, we give in the special offerings. we give in the yearly renovation offerings, we give to those in need when we know they are in need, we give to family. Experience is NOT always a good measure of the merit of a doctrine.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

So Nite, if all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable, what is the underlying principle of Malachi 3 where God says that He had been robbed of tithes and offerings? What is the profitable principle of God saying "try me"? I don't believe tithing is a matter of salvation as I have heard some preachers preach, but to say that the NT church didn't practice tithing or giving to support ministry and the work of the Church isn't accurate either.

And the experience I have seen is that people that resist tithing are the least generous people overall anyway. People that are faithful givers arent contentious, have a good spirit about giving and tend to be fulfilled people with blessed lives. People I pastor that give very little or nothing at all continually struggle financially, life in general seems to be a struggle and they seem to be very inconsistent in a lot of other areas of life. You usually can't count on them in a lot of other areas.

I always thought that Malachi was not as much about tithing, but what they had done that made God end the covenant He had made with them for another.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I have never encouraged anyone to give and not pay bills or to forgo feeding their families. I have never had anyone approach me and tell me, "I give and give and give and God doesn't provide". I don't tell people they are cursed either. But if you're life isn't blessed by being a giver, then what is the alternative? Is it a sin to not give? If it isn't what is it then? If it is a sin, doesn't sin open the door to consequences? Call it a curse, call consequences, call it something else but I believe a person who withholds opportunities to give---and sometimes to give sacrificially---does not live a blessed life.

We had a young lady who had no family in church but was faithful in attendance and giving. She was faced with a bill to be paid or to give her tithes. She chose of her own free will to ignore the bill and give her tithes. Later that week she got a check in the mail for $1,000 from a relative that she was totally not expecting. Giving has consequences---good ones. Stinginess has consequences---bad ones. Still God is better to us than we deserve and he's good to all of us whether we are giving or not. It's just that I see that the liberal souls are made fat.

And the reward of giving exceeds financial blessing. Prospering has so much more to do with overall quality of life than dollars and cents. I agree that a doctrine of condemnation and guilt connected to giving isn't Biblical, but a teaching of right attitudes and spirits about giving certainly is Biblical.

We have prospered and suffered financially, all the while paying tithes and offerings. I don't ever use tithing as a get out of debt free card. Which you haven't done here, but some do use the teaching in that way. It simply isn't true. We will be blessed and will at time suffer need.

[Nitehawk013]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I have never encouraged anyone to give and not pay bills or to forgo feeding their families. I have never had anyone approach me and tell me, "I give and give and give and God doesn't provide". I don't tell people they are cursed either. But if you're life isn't blessed by being a giver, then what is the alternative? Is it a sin to not give? If it isn't what is it then? If it is a sin, doesn't sin open the door to consequences? Call it a curse, call consequences, call it something else but I believe a person who withholds opportunities to give---and sometimes to give sacrificially---does not live a blessed life.

We had a young lady who had no family in church but was faithful in attendance and giving. She was faced with a bill to be paid or to give her tithes. She chose of her own free will to ignore the bill and give her tithes. Later that week she got a check in the mail for $1,000 from a relative that she was totally not expecting. Giving has consequences---good ones. Stinginess has consequences---bad ones. Still God is better to us than we deserve and he's good to all of us whether we are giving or not. It's just that I see that the liberal souls are made fat.

And the reward of giving exceeds financial blessing. Prospering has so much more to do with overall quality of life than dollars and cents. I agree that a doctrine of condemnation and guilt connected to giving isn't Biblical, but a teaching of right attitudes and spirits about giving certainly is Biblical.

I am in agreement with this. I just don't think that those right attitudes about giving should include the tithing doctrine.

If tithing were as important as many make it, I think Paul would have mentioned it (instead of just possibly, maybe alluding to it one time in Corinthians). I think if it were that important one of the other Bible writers would have been inspired to include it as a command to the NT church. I think one of the early church "fathers" and/or those in the generation immediately after the Apostles (those who were the "disciples" of the Apostles) would have told the churhc it wa snecessary. Yet they didn't.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Bro. Deacon Blues....

Me thinks you protest too much... I'll include you in my list of pastors I know who probably sacrifice everything they have in order to further the work of the Lord. I really see your heart in your posts, that you truly care, and love the work of the Lord, and it is a ministry of love for you. And I believe that you are giving as unto the Lord, and not because you have to.

But you are refusing to see the other side of the coin that is being discussed here. Just because YOU don't do these things, doesn't mean it isn't being done. Be honest with yourself.... how many preachers/pastors do you know that live way above the means of the people in their church? There is no problem in scripture with a minister receiving honor where honor is due, and being helped by the people of the church, however Paul makes it very clear that the ministry is there to support the needs of the church, and the people, and if money begins to come in that goes beyond supporting those needs, that money needs to go outside the church walls to help the widows, the fatherless, the orphans, the poor.... those who have nothing.

Can you say that of your church? What is your church doing to support those with the "extra" that comes in after the bills are paid?

This is the question we all need to ask even of ourselves...what are we ourselves doing with the extra that God has blessed us? Have we helped someone today with that money, or have we spent that money on something new for ourselves?

I am not afraid to look at my own life seriously, and question ... what am I doing with the extra, with what God has blessed me with? Have I helped anyone in need today? Have I done anything that costs me something... to help someone in need?

I won't brag on the things I have done, but it is a question I ask myself each day, and our family gives to those around us, to families who don't know us anonymously, to the Salvation Army, and to those in our lives who minister to us... we give to our parents who are elderly and in need of extra $$ because they are now feeble and unable to work.... I view this as truly the giving spirit that the Lord has asked of us.

Giving is a standard that comes with the life of Christ living within us... it is much better to give than to receive....

I think the preachers who abuse their position and church money are the exception, not the rule. Out of the local preachers (Pentecostal) that I know I would say only one out of about twelve lived large with expensive vehicles and a was known for a lavish lifestyle. In the end, it was to his undoing and he no longer pastors. That church I have heard is making adjustments to the way money is handled and the next pastor wont have the same opportunity to abuse the privilege. The rest of the men I know live in middle class neighborhoods, their wives work, they golf at a golf course that offers a Monday special to preachers---$20 for 18 holes and a cart.

The high rollers get all of the attention. The blue collar preachers are often overlooked. I know many of these men do a lot of the church maintenance, landscaping, yard work---they work hard for the church.

These prosperity guys on TV and these country club preachers don't represent the vast majority of the men and women who are doing what they do for the right reasons.