A thought on tithing

[TGBTG]

Matt 10
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

1 Tim 5
17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18 For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

1 Cor 9
5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

2 Thess 3
7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you,
8 nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you.
9 We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to make ourselves a model for you to follow

Paul had the right to make his living from preaching, BUT he decided to continue his tent making job ALONGSIDE his preaching.

[Pressing-On]

TGBTG,
Thanks for taking the time with your posts. I have another question, but your and Dave's posts keep colliding in my little pea brain and I have to think about both for a bit before asking any further questions.

[The Lemon]

Regardless of your views on how to give (10%, more, or less), can we all agree that we have a biblical responsibility to be givers...both money, food, clothing, whatever the need may be...especially to those in the household of faith.

Your Pastor (assuming he is a good shephard), is a pillar of faith, and a rock in a world that blows to and fro with every wind of doctrine. We should be glad to give to help the ministry...glad to give to help one another...glad to give when and where we can.

Freely we have received...freely give. I understand the doctrinal debate, and it is for the most part good. but when everything settles...it is our responsibility, our character, our integrity....giving in a Christians life is not optional.

If anything, we should pray to be more sensitive, better stewards, just better for Him, and for each other, and for a world that is lost.

JMHO..

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

Regardless of your views on how to give (10%, more, or less), can we all agree that we have a biblical responsibility to be givers...both money, food, clothing, whatever the need may be...especially to those in the household of faith.

Your Pastor (assuming he is a good shephard), is a pillar of faith, and a rock in a world that blows to and fro with every wind of doctrine. We should be glad to give to help the ministry...glad to give to help one another...glad to give when and where we can.

Freely we have received...freely give. I understand the doctrinal debate, and it is for the most part good. but when everything settles...it is our responsibility, our character, our integrity....giving in a Christians life is not optional.

If anything, we should pray to be more sensitive, better stewards, just better for Him, and for each other, and for a world that is lost.

JMHO..

[DaveC519]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

Regardless of your views on how to give (10%, more, or less), can we all agree that we have a biblical responsibility to be givers...both money, food, clothing, whatever the need may be...especially to those in the household of faith.

Your Pastor (assuming he is a good shephard), is a pillar of faith, and a rock in a world that blows to and fro with every wind of doctrine. We should be glad to give to help the ministry...glad to give to help one another...glad to give when and where we can.

Freely we have received...freely give. I understand the doctrinal debate, and it is for the most part good. but when everything settles...it is our responsibility, our character, our integrity....giving in a Christians life is not optional.

If anything, we should pray to be more sensitive, better stewards, just better for Him, and for each other, and for a world that is lost.

JMHO..

Great post! Thank you

[BeenThinkin]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

Regardless of your views on how to give (10%, more, or less), can we all agree that we have a biblical responsibility to be givers...both money, food, clothing, whatever the need may be...especially to those in the household of faith.

Your Pastor (assuming he is a good shephard), is a pillar of faith, and a rock in a world that blows to and fro with every wind of doctrine. We should be glad to give to help the ministry...glad to give to help one another...glad to give when and where we can.

Freely we have received...freely give. I understand the doctrinal debate, and it is for the most part good. but when everything settles...it is our responsibility, our character, our integrity....giving in a Christians life is not optional.

If anything, we should pray to be more sensitive, better stewards, just better for Him, and for each other, and for a world that is lost.

JMHO..

I think some have forgotten this passage. ....... 2Co 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

And maybe this one.... Out of context? You decide.

Mt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


Been Thinkin

[DaveC519]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

The five-fold ministry are the things where one edifies the other. Roman 14:19
The bible does not say that he gave gifts to some men. It says he gave gifts to men, come from the greek anthropos, which means mankind. Eph 4:8.

And in Eph 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

What does the Bible say about the Body of Christ? It says in I Corinthians 12.

But this is not inferring that all the ministry is to receive a tithe. Not at all. You are adding to scripture something that isn't there. We are all the ministry with diverse gifts from the Spirit. So how can one man be elevated above the rest of the people to obtain the fruits of their labor? This is in direct violation of Romans 12:16.

I do not see 1Cor 9:14 and Rom 12:16 as an either/or choice. They are both valid and both applicable. There is BOTH a universal ministry of all members of the Body for all members of the Body, and there is also a five-fold ministry. All Christians are called into the former, but not all are called to pastor a church, etc.

I believe we must also consider other passages which speak to this subject, such as Heb 13:16-17 and 1Pet 5:1-5. Not all members of the Body are called to serve in the capacities discussed in these. And to those who ARE called to preach the gospel among us (1Cor 9:14), the pastor of a church would be considered the bishop/overseer of that flock, and these verses first apply to them.

I will say this, I have not been in any church where the five-fold ministry is whole and operating.

I invite you to visit my church. All five in operation there.

Somehow a "pastor" has been elevated to the top and many of them will preach that they are entitled to 10% tithe of the people's earnings.

In relation to an individual congregation, the senior pastor/bishop IS the chief overseer of that flock. But discussion of this point would take up an entire other thread, and this one seems to be going long as it is.

And they will use the Levitical priesthood as their example. Or in your case (in like manner).

I have argued in this thread that there is a big difference between the Levitical priesthood/tithe and the Melchisedec priesthood/tithe. The former no longer exists; the latter does.

I sat under a pastor that would not have an assistant pastor because, in his words...no church can have two heads. He was so full of himself that he forgot that Christ is the Head of the church.

There was a well-known ministry who brought all the people in his local body to this church to worship because they did not have a church building of their own. This very church split because of a fierce disagreement between the pastor and the superintendent of the other organization about who reserved the right to take the tithes.

Yes, they fought over money. It hurt the body of Christ when two pastors were fighting over the carnal things they each thought they were entitled to reap from the people.
IMO, neither should have had the right because they were acting like two fools fighting over the money.

I can't speak to these individual cases because I'm unfamiliar with them. I have already acknowledged more than once that abuses do exist in the Body, and that these individuals WILL be held accountable for their actions (Lu 17:1-2).

If there was an actual five-fold ministry operating in our churches today, the four walls could not contain the people and the banks would be bursting from the free will giving. The Holy Spirit would convict the people into giving as the Lord hath prospered them. If the church system was truly seeking the Kingdom of God...all the other things would be added unto them just like Christ said. They would not be whining about 'stingy' people.

Did the NT church automatically have everything it needed monetarily, or did offerings need to be taken up (1Cor 16:1-3)?

I was a tither every penny and more until I saw how preachers manipulate and misconstrue the Scriptures to obtain the fruits of another's labor. I saw how they fought one another. I saw how they wrangled and manipulated scripture to obtain even a dollar out of someone receiving welfare. And this is not all of the nonsense I've heard coming from the mouths of teachers who lived well above the average "saint".

Unfortunately, this is not the first time I've heard of experiences such as yours, and for that, I'm sorry to hear. But I also hear of many hard working, truly caring pastors who are decent, honorable, and DO put their flock first ahead of their own needs. It would be wonderful if all congregations were like that, but I know that's not the case. However, we cannot abandon a clear teaching of Scripture because there are abuses of that teaching, in an attempt to correct those abuses. We must be faithful to the text regardless of what anyone else does- at least that's my personal approach.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

The Matthew 23 argument that Elder E makes seems pretty clear cut. Jesus says you should tithe just as you should exercise mercy and judgment. And the argument that "this was still under the OT law" is the same argument used against using the Gospels for scriptures on salvation. You can't say that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are valid for salvation scriptures but not for NT instruction on lifestyle and Christian living.

Thanks really it is very simple.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

And your referring to me as an armchair theologian is rather unbecoming of a preacher. It suggests that you are way up there and I am way below you.

I never claim to be a 'theologian'. I can read. I can think and reason out what I read. The Holy Spirit teaches me from what I read...not man.

I did not mean to offend you many of these folks have posted with me for years and they know I am picking. I apologize.

[tv1a]

AYR gets pretty touchy when you put facts into the conversation.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I did not mean to offend you many of these folks have posted with me for years and they know I am picking. I apologize.