Why Imply No Tongues = No Salvation?

[tv1a]

It's natural to want be around a familiar environemnt. A lot of people don't have the guts to grow spiritually grow. He would regret going back.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Go home and do not delay. The Holy Ghost is dealing with you.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Dordrecht

The Samaritan church believed the gospel and were baptized. According to Mark 16:16, "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved."

According to the Lord’s word, these Samaritans were saved because they believed and were baptized. Later, however, Peter placed his hands on them and they were filled with the Spirit.

Jesus also taught that the Holy Spirit belonged to God’s Children, not to the world. The following scripture is evidence to this:

If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him! (Luke 11:13)

Notice that God gives the Holy Spirit to His children, not to the unsaved.

So you must be God’s child before you are entitled to the Holy Spirit.

Dordecht---I LOVE THIS! Transitioning from Apostolic teaching on salvation to grace/faith based salvation, there are certain issues that have difficult for me to reconcile. Mostly it's the teaching about the Holy Spirit and it's impartation and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Luke 11 has been a great comfort to me because Jesus says nothing about tongues, He states we simply ask. But for whatever reason I never have connected the parallel of children asking a father for gifts and us asking our Father for the Holy Spirit meaning that those who are already children are asking for the Spirit. EXCELLENT!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Recently, I went back to visit my former Pastor's church for Wed night service. I loved being there and loved listening to his teaching. I felt at home, and there was no pressure from people asking a whole bunch of questions. It seemed like this was where I belonged.


I can explain away, look the other way, agree to disagree with most of my objections with the doctrines of the American 21st century Apostolic churches I've had the privilege of being a member of.


However, I am having a great deal of difficulty accepting that the Bible teaches that one MUST speak in tongues in order to be saved, or to show proof that one is saved.


I find this idea simply unbiblical. I am thinking about going back to visit this Sunday morning. Part of me thinks I am setting myself up for failure and pain again, as it was a personally agonizing decision to leave in the first place.


I miss my former Pastor and my former church.

But why should I even go back to visit when I already know the deal with these precious people and their doctrine?

This thread is pointless. Been down this road mentally how many times? But I sure do miss my former Pastor.


Why do Apostolics teach that a Christian must speak in tongues in the course of one's salvation?

The way I see it... it's not a matter of a failure to speak in tongues means that one isn't saved. To me, the issue is Regeration. A person isn't regenerated in their spirit until they receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Now, if one believes that tongues are evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost... it stands to reason that one will believe that another isn't saved if they haven't spoken in tongues.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

The Bible states that the jailer had the Word of the Lord spoken to him and he and his household were baptized... and rejoiced because he and his household believed in God.

It's a stretch to believe that the jailer and his household spoke in tongues at this encounter.

It's also a stretch to teach that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate experience from being born again.

Faith is a stretch.

Go through the entire book of Acts and you'll find 19 recorded conversions. Only 4-5 record an Acts 2:38 pattern (I'll give you Paul's conversion as the 5th but it says nothing about speaking in tongues. In I Cor. he says he speaks in tongues so I'll give you that one). 100% of the conversions include repentance/faith/belief. The Acts 2:38 pattern is not in the Gospels nor is it found in the Epistles. Repentance/faith/belief is found in both the Gospels and Epistles. In fact from Genesis to Revelation the common thread is repentance/faith/belief. The evidence weighs HEAVILY in favor of repentance/faith/belief.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by tv1a

It's natural to want be around a familiar environemnt. A lot of people don't have the guts to grow spiritually grow. He would regret going back.

And are you going to an Apostolic church?

[navygoat1998]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Dordecht---I LOVE THIS! Transitioning from Apostolic teaching on salvation to grace/faith based salvation, there are certain issues that have difficult for me to reconcile. Mostly it's the teaching about the Holy Spirit and it's impartation and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Luke 11 has been a great comfort to me because Jesus says nothing about tongues, He states we simply ask. But for whatever reason I never have connected the parallel of children asking a father for gifts and us asking our Father for the Holy Spirit meaning that those who are already children are asking for the Spirit. EXCELLENT!

Deacon I have always wondered about John 20:22-23

22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

They had the Holy Spirit even before the upper-room.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by navygoat1998

Deacon I have always wondered about John 20:22-23

22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

They had the Holy Spirit even before the upper-room.

His disciples?

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

You know what Sir? You're right. I do want to return to my old church. I don't like my AOG church all that much any more. Great people. Nice sermons. A billion ways to connect and get to know others and serve and do. But lately, I feel like I'm stagnant. Then the sins of my past try to grab hold of me, bringing more discouragement. The really GREAT thing about the AOG church is the openess and transparency that is encouraged so that when I do fall, there are people there that I can confide in with the confidence that they're not talking about my failures to others, or looking at me as if I'm not a Christian at all.

I never experienced that before at any other church that I've attended anywhere in the world-- UCPI, Church of Christ, WOTCC, or COGIC.

The stagnation I'm talking about can mostly be addressed by my actions away from the church, in every day life. Consistent prayer and fasting, discipline in what I place before my eyes and most importantly for me, discipline in my thought life. These are things that I am making subject to the Name of Jesus. As I make more progress in these personal areas, my perception will change for the better, I am sure.

But man oh man, what I would give to have the Holy Ghost break out in just one of our services! These people are missing out on so much and frankly, I'm bored and really wanting to experience GOD like that again at my current church. Hungry? No, starving!

I guess everyone else who has left "the mothership" just gets used to things being different. I am sure there are explanations that work well for them, but at 1:30am there is nothing more that I want in this moment than to KNOW that when I go to church this Wednesday night, there will be a move of God at my church-- one where the people of God are praising and worshiping the Lord for an extended period, where people start to dance in the Spirit and just praise the Lord until!

Maybe I'm just such a baby in Christ to want this to happen at my church-- so immature that I don't realize that my desire is selfish and unnecessary. Oh Well. I'm spoiled rotten, but I know what I'm missing out on and I'll never forget what I've already experienced!

It's like being a single guy introduced to a good woman, only to realize in frustration that there's no spark, no chemistry.


Rhetorically, do you know what it is like to be in love? Do you know what it is like to lose yourself in praise? Do you know what it is like to dance under the influence of the Holy Spirit while knowing that you're not the one moving your legs? Do you know what it is like to leap for joy so much more higher than what you could ever do while driving in for a lay up?

Yes I want to be in a church where the Lord could and maybe even would move like this at least once a year.

However, I don't want this at the sacrifice of the truth of God's Word.

The Holy Ghost baptism is for all believers, but salvation is by grace through faith. The "New Birth" happens at faith-- regeneration by the Word of God. Everything else that follows, flows from a heart that has been converted by the Power of the preached Word of God. The signs will follow those who believe and the point of salvation is not at the manifestation of the signs, but at the point of faith.

This difference is not a small difference.

JD I have strong feelings about this. I do not disparage anyone's experience. Your personal experience with God is your personal experience.

But this notion of a "move of God" is extra Biblical IMO. Do people experience God? Yes. Are emotions involved in a relationship w God? Yes. But this idea of emotion = move of God or exuberant worship = move of God I just can't find in the Bible. It's a Pentecostal construct. It's cultural. It's a condition-response based on the subculture of the Pentecostal movement.

I know a girl that started going to a UPC church because she could get her emotional fix there, go to the altar, get a bunch of folks surrounding her, weep and cry and speak in tongues, and every night go home to her live-in boyfriend. She was raised in our church, we were very close to her, we tried to discourage living with the boyfriend, but she finally said she just didn't "feel God" like she did at the other church.

Of course after a while she was expected to not cut her hair, etc. So the newness of her coming and repenting every service and "feeling God" wore off and she began to get shunned a bit or people began putting on the pressure. But the big issue with us was living w the boyfriend and no doubt being involved sexually with him. For the UPC church it was needing her to show that the "moves of God" she was responding to were validated with a changed lifestyle. She just wanted her weekly "fix" and then go back to the same lifestyle. Somewhere she got the idea that "feeling God" is what it's all about---not BELIEVING GOD. I know where she got it, it certainly wasn't us.

I can remember just wanting to go to church and having a good ole, lay on your face and weep until you could weep no more cry down. I have danced (always under my own power, I've never experienced the out of body kind of stuff where you don't know how your legs are moving, etc) before the Lord for hours at a time until I had no strength left to leap or dance or shout. I know the idea of wanting a "move of God" because I grew up in an environment that emotional releases were called "moves of God". But in reality a lot of it was emotionalism. It was an overemphasis on having an experience rather than solid faith, trust and security in the person of Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross.

I still worship with hands raised, mouth opened, clapping, standing to my feet and moving with the music. I still weep in our services. I speak in tongues in our worship services. But I never feel I HAVE to, or that something is wrong with me, or I am disconnected from God if I don't. In fact, I appreciate the deep settled peace in my soul I sense every time I go to church. I don't have to do anything but love the Lord and trust Him for my standing with Him. I can go to church with all of my weaknesses, my humanity, my brokenness, my shortcomings, my sins, my stupidity and foolishness and He will still be in our midst---in spite of us, simply because we have gathered together in His name.

[navygoat1998]

Originally Posted by Cindy

His disciples?

Yes mam:
John 20:19-23
19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

[navygoat1998]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

JD I have strong feelings about this. I do not disparage anyone's experience. Your personal experience with God is your personal experience.

But this notion of a "move of God" is extra Biblical IMO. Do people experience God? Yes. Are emotions involved in a relationship w God? Yes. But this idea of emotion = move of God or exuberant worship = move of God I just can't find in the Bible. It's a Pentecostal construct. It's cultural. It's a condition-response based on the subculture of the Pentecostal movement.

I know a girl that started going to a UPC church because she could get her emotional fix there, go to the altar, get a bunch of folks surrounding her, weep and cry and speak in tongues, and every night go home to her live-in boyfriend. She was raised in our church, we were very close to her, we tried to discourage living with the boyfriend, but she finally said she just didn't "feel God" like she did at the other church.

Of course after a while she was expected to not cut her hair, etc. So the newness of her coming and repenting every service and "feeling God" wore off and she began to get shunned a bit or people began putting on the pressure. But the big issue with us was living w the boyfriend and no doubt being involved sexually with him. For the UPC church it was needing her to show that the "moves of God" she was responding to were validated with a changed lifestyle. She just wanted her weekly "fix" and then go back to the same lifestyle. Somewhere she got the idea that "feeling God" is what it's all about---not BELIEVING GOD. I know where she got it, it certainly wasn't us.

I can remember just wanting to go to church and having a good ole, lay on your face and weep until you could weep no more cry down. I have danced (always under my own power, I've never experienced the out of body kind of stuff where you don't know how your legs are moving, etc) before the Lord for hours at a time until I had no strength left to leap or dance or shout. I know the idea of wanting a "move of God" because I grew up in an environment that emotional releases were called "moves of God". But in reality a lot of it was emotionalism. It was an overemphasis on having an experience rather than solid faith, trust and security in the person of Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross.

I still worship with hands raised, mouth opened, clapping, standing to my feet and moving with the music. I still weep in our services. I speak in tongues in our worship services. But I never feel I HAVE to, or that something is wrong with me, or I am disconnected from God if I don't. In fact, I appreciate the deep settled peace in my soul I sense every time I go to church. I don't have to do anything but love the Lord and trust Him for my standing with Him. I can go to church with all of my weaknesses, my humanity, my brokenness, my shortcomings, my sins, my stupidity and foolishness and He will still be in our midst---in spite of us, simply because we have gathered together in His name.