Where was Samuel ?

[shag]

I believe, help my unbelief

Do u believe David in acts 2, was "soul sleeping", and if so, when did that type of "after-death" transition to something different? (At the New birth experience?)

And what's your take on preaching to the spirits in prison?

[Sister Alvear]

Saul did not actually see anything himself, he had to ask the witch who is was that she saw. So based on what the witch said, Saul presumed it was Samuel who he was communicating with, that Samuel had been summoned from the grave to speak with him, since the witch said she could see Samuel coming up from out of the earth (not down from heaven). King Saul was putting his trust completely in a spirit medium, a witch, a necromancer, against the expressed will of God. So the following conversation was not between Saul and Samuel, but between Saul and a witch with a familiar (demonic) spirit:

1 Chr 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it;
1 Chr 10:14 And inquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.

The words in italics in verse 13 are supplied by the translator, as they are not in the original text. So if you drop those words, it reads:

So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking of a familiar spirit, to inquire;

So the passage above clearly states, Saul communicated with a demonic spirit, not Samuel. (copied)


This kind of stuff goes on night and day here where I live...people are always paying to ""TALK"" to the dead.....and the witches here charge them far beyond what they can afford...


Lev 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
Deu 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
Deu 18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
Deu 18:13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
Deu 18:14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by shag

I believe, help my unbelief

Do u believe David in acts 2, was "soul sleeping", and if so, when did that type of "after-death" transition to something different? (At the New birth experience?)

And what's your take on preaching to the spirits in prison?

No, I do not believe that David in Acts 2 was 'soul sleeping'. Acts 2 reveals what all of us must face, death of the body but it also reveals what all of us in Christ must face also, the defeat of death by the resurrection of Jesus. This is why Jesus plainly said that those in Him would never die. We can point to the hole in the ground where we saw a loved one placed and believe that death is still reigning, but according to Jesus this isn't the case. The confusion is with those who equate the dead of the temporal flesh with dead of the soul.

My take on the preaching of Jesus while 'dead' was simply that Jesus was preaching while He was 'dead'. He wasn't in a soul sleep state, He was very active in the manner in which He existed while His dead body was in the tomb.

Do you believe Moses and Elijah were soul sleeping when they appeared to Jesus at the mount of transfiguration?

[Sister Alvear]

Dr. J Vernon McGee has this to say about The Witch of Endor on page 180 of his commentary:

"It is obvious from the account of the witch of En-dor that God was not in it. To begin with, God would not call Samuel up--Saul makes it clear that God was no longer speaking to him...There are those who say that the witch actually brought Samuel from the dead. I say to you that such an explanation is neither tenable nor consistent with the rest of Scripture. We are told in 1 Chronicles 10:13, "So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it."

There are those who use 1 Samuel 28:12 to prove that God caused Samuel to appear. "And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul." I do not hold with this theory. I believe it was an impersonation by a false spirit rather than Samuel who appeared. God no longer spoke to Saul. Worse still, Saul no longer spoke to God. The dead cannot communicate with the living. This was satanic from the beginning to end."

What are some reasons that preachers give for believing that Samuel came back from the grave?

1) The text tells us so.
McGee refutes this idea "If you read the account carefully, you will realize that Saul did not see Samuel. It was the witch, who may never have seen Samuel alive, who said she saw an old man covered with a mantle. Of course they jumped to the conclusion it was Samuel. When they did, he answered as Samuel--because demons can impersonate. Saul has laid himself wide open for Satan, and Satan has moved in," Commentary on 1 Samuel page 179.

2) Samuel Spoke For Himself.
"When they did, he answered as Samuel--because demons can impersonate. Saul has laid himself wide open for Satan, and Satan has moved in."

3) Saul Bowed To Samuel.
I don't think that Saul is a good example to follow. Saul went to Satan instead of God, his judgment should not be pointed to for us to follow. "If you read the account carefully, you will realize that Saul did not see Samuel. It was the witch, who may never have seen Samuel alive, who said she saw an old man covered with a mantle."

4) Samuel's Words Were True.
Dr. J. Vernon McGee refutes this idea "It is interesting to note that nothing new is added. Saul does not get any new information. Samuel, before his death, had already pronounced the death, the destruction, and the rejection of Saul. Certainly Saul did not gain any comfort, any direction, or any new information from his excursion into the spirit world," Commentary on 1 Samuel page 179.

[shag]

Originally Posted by seekerman

No, I do not believe that David in Acts 2 was 'soul sleeping'. Acts 2 reveals what all of us must face, death of the body but it also reveals what all of us in Christ must face also, the defeat of death by the resurrection of Jesus. This is why Jesus plainly said that those in Him would never die. We can point to the hole in the ground where we saw a loved one placed and believe that death is still reigning, but according to Jesus this isn't the case. The confusion is with those who equate the dead of the temporal flesh with dead of the soul.

My take on the preaching of Jesus while 'dead' was simply that Jesus was preaching while He was 'dead'. He wasn't in a soul sleep state, He was very active in the manner in which He existed while His dead body was in the tomb.

Do you believe Moses and Elijah were soul sleeping when they appeared to Jesus at the mount of transfiguration?

Does not look to me like Moses and Elijah were "soul sleeping"..

In Acts 2, Concerning David stating that "his soul would not be left in hell", what is the fulfillment of that? Physical resurrection? And if not, then what exactly was not to be "left in hell"?
Just trying to understand how u see it...

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by shag

Does not look to me like Moses and Elijah were "soul sleeping"..

In Acts 2, Concerning David stating that "his soul would not be left in hell", what is the fulfillment of that? Physical resurrection? And if not, then what exactly was not to be "left in hell"?
Just trying to understand how u see it...

Scripture plainly says his soul would not be left in hell. The fulfillment was when Jesus led captivity captive and gave gifts to men.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Saul did not actually see anything himself, he had to ask the witch who is was that she saw. So based on what the witch said, Saul presumed it was Samuel who he was communicating with, that Samuel had been summoned from the grave to speak with him, since the witch said she could see Samuel coming up from out of the earth (not down from heaven). King Saul was putting his trust completely in a spirit medium, a witch, a necromancer, against the expressed will of God. So the following conversation was not between Saul and Samuel, but between Saul and a witch with a familiar (demonic) spirit:

1 Chr 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it;
1 Chr 10:14 And inquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.

The words in italics in verse 13 are supplied by the translator, as they are not in the original text. So if you drop those words, it reads:

So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking of a familiar spirit, to inquire;

So the passage above clearly states, Saul communicated with a demonic spirit, not Samuel. (copied)


This kind of stuff goes on night and day here where I live...people are always paying to ""TALK"" to the dead.....and the witches here charge them far beyond what they can afford...


Lev 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
Deu 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
Deu 18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
Deu 18:13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
Deu 18:14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.

Saul went to speak with a familiar spirit. That was his sin. That does not mean that is what happened. God designed something else for Saul

The text does not say Saul THOUGHT it was Samuel. It does not say the familiar pretended to be Samuel

The woman was actually surprised, she got something she did not expect.

1Sa 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul."

It says she saw Samuel, not a demon that appeared like Samuel.

1Sa 28:14 He said to her, "What is his appearance?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe." And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.

Saul KNEW that it was Samuel...why would the author say that and not "Saul was deceived into believing the demon was Samuel"?

1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?

Sounds like something Samuel would say...demons deceive. Here the demon could have given him some false word

1Sa 28:17 The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me, for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David.

Why would the demon confirm what Samuel said?

1Sa 28:18 Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day.

Why would a demon speak this way and not rather lie to Saul and tell him it's all good like the false prophets do?

Sa 28:19 Moreover, the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines."

This came true! Why would a demon speak for the LORD a true word?

1Sa 28:20 Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten nothing all day and all night.

The author of this book said it was the words of Samuel

[deacon blues]

See Luke 16:19-31

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

See Luke 16:19-31

Its like when a Oneness tries to share with a Trinitarian. They (Trins) have a few scriptures not realizing the abundance of scripture that teaches otherwise. They cannot be open because they already think they know the truth.

[Lafon]

Sister Alvear, I must clarify one of my previous statements about this matter (at the time I acted in haste w/o consulting the scripture to insure the accuracy of my words).

I am not persuaded that the Witch of Endor either possessed or exercised the power to bodily resurrect Samuel from the dead (God reserves that to Himself), rather I believe that which took place was both she and Saul were given the ability to peer into the invisible spiritual realm, where there Samuel was awakened from the sleep of death and spoke face-to-face with Saul.

With regards to all of the various "surmising" and "assumptions" expressed by others concerning the intermediate state of reality for the souls of mankind following the death of the bodies in which they reside, there prevails such an abundance of error that most people are left utterly destitute of an understanding of that which the judgment of death actually entails. In making this statement I am mindful of the following quote, excerpted from "The Ventures of Young Werther," by Goethe (1774):

"We are so constituted that we believe the most incredible things, and, once engraved upon the memory, woe unto that man who would endeavor to erase them."