Ummm, I think he is trying to separate holiness and outward standards. When most UPC believe they are one and the same. And he has been studying the Word, and can't find any scripture to support without jumping through hoops. Do I have that right, PreacherME?
I believe that holiness, which begins on the inside will also manifest on the outside in the way of modesty, which doesn't necessarily negate a traditional view of standards, IMO.
I also believe that we should, especially, take heed to the words of Jesus in John 9:49 "And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. (50) And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us."
The UPC is preaching the Gospel message, so they are not against any of us. I don't include tradition in the Gospel, for the record. Let's be careful to do our part and not be against them. As someone once advised me, "Sometimes there comes a time to cut bait." I agree, and the decision should be up to when that time is right, according to God's will.
hi, I am a licensed minister within the UPC And I have been Apostolic all my life. (3rd generation)
Last night my pastor preached about holiness without giving real scripture. This is quite confusing because I am not versed in the matters of holiness and I do not know how to give answers concerning holiness without hemming and hawwing.
Anyway, my pastor goes on to say that if you believe the lie that charismatics believe you will end up in hell. Well, I was wondering , what if believing in the ideas of holiness as the UPCI puts it is a lie? Would that not send one to hell as well?
thoughts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PreacherME
lets see.....when you are told to uphold standards or you are going to hell for more than 40 years, you tend to think that there is a lie somewhere and it is easy to be disillusioned by what you believe( especially when you feel like you have no strong scripture to back it up with)
Let me see if I get this straight...
You are:
1. 3rd gen
2. a licensed minister
3. have heard this preached/taught for over 40 years
And YET are not versed enough to give an answer when asked?
For me, there is just something in this that doesn't ring true...sorry.
While any sincere and mature Christian will seek to be modest outwardly... to rest one's salvation on anything other than the blood of Jesus Christ is idolatry.
I think we often confuse two kinds of "holiness". Through Christ we receive Justification which declares us "holy" in that we have put on the very "righteousness of God" through Jesus Christ. This is a "covering", if you will, wherein God declares the believer righteous and holy as though they've never sinned. This righteousness/holiness is imputed and comes to us by nothing other than our continued faith in Christ. The second kind of "holiness" is related to our "Sanctification". Sanctification is defined as our personal growth into Christlikeness. It has to do with our behaviors. While we are justified in God's sight through the blood... we must grow into that holiness through Sanctification. The righteousness of God is imputed to our spirits through faith as a result of receving the Holy Ghost, that's Jesus on the inside, in our inner man, in our spirits. So our spirits have His eternal sinlessness imparted to it. However, our minds (souls) and our flesh (bodies) must be sanctified through daily mortification of carnal desires and the renewing of our minds through the washing (study) of the Word. Santification brings the mind and body into harmony with the indwelling spiritual reality of Justification.
That being said... a born again believer is Justified in God's sight through faith (else they would have never received the Holy Ghost). However, the believer must grow in Sanctification. A spiritually immature believer, or babe in Christ, might live a life that requires far more sanctification than a spiritually mature saint of God, who is a spiritual father or mother in the faith. Their lack of outward Sanctification (i.e. the focus of "standards") has little to do with their "salvation". However, if they continue in the faith without maturing in Christ and growing in sanctification, their failure to bear fruit will cause them to be cut off. This is because their carnal desires will stiffle and suffocate the inner reality of God's Spirit. At a given point, known only to Himself, God will bring conviction, temporal judgments (discipline), and finally (if not heeded) God will depart. When they are cut off you will not have to tell them that they are. God will depart from them and they will lose interest in the things of God and fall away. However, don't lose hope for them. God can restore them. However, if they refuse to return and become grafted back in as a branch of the True Vine, Jesus Christ, they will be lost.
1. 3rd gen
2. a licensed minister
3. have heard this preached/taught for over 40 years
And YET are not versed enough to give an answer when asked?
For me, there is just something in this that doesn't ring true...sorry.
Let me ask you a question: Are you versed enough to explain to me why women should not wear pants? Are they going to hell? Are you versed enough to tell me why I should not have a tv? Is the ownership of owning a television set gonna send someone to hell? Can you explain why some women get to wear dresses to thier knees is some UPC churches, but in other UPC churches they are going to hell? Are you versed enough to answer these questions? Can you tell me why it is okay for some in the UPC can wear wedding bands and others cannot? are you versed enough to tell me that?
While any sincere and mature Christian will seek to be modest outwardly... to rest one's salvation on anything other than the blood of Jesus Christ is idolatry.
I think we often confuse two kinds of "holiness". Through Christ we receive Justification which declares us "holy" in that we have put on the very "righteousness of God" through Jesus Christ. This is a "covering", if you will, wherein God declares the believer righteous and holy as though they've never sinned. This righteousness/holiness is imputed and comes to us by nothing other than our continued faith in Christ. The second kind of "holiness" is related to our "Sanctification". Sanctification is defined as our personal growth into Christlikeness. It has to do with our behaviors. While we are justified in God's sight through the blood... we must grow into that holiness through Sanctification. The righteousness of God is imputed to our spirits through faith as a result of receving the Holy Ghost, that's Jesus on the inside, in our inner man, in our spirits. So our spirits have His eternal sinlessness imparted to it. However, our minds (souls) and our flesh (bodies) must be sanctified through daily mortification of carnal desires and the renewing of our minds through the washing (study) of the Word. Santification brings the mind and body into harmony with the indwelling spiritual reality of Justification.
That being said... a born again believer is Justified in God's sight through faith (else they would have never received the Holy Ghost). However, the believer must grow in Sanctification. A spiritually immature believer, or babe in Christ, might live a life that requires far more sanctification than a spiritually mature saint of God, who is a spiritual father or mother in the faith. Their lack of outward Sanctification (i.e. the focus of "standards") has little to do with their "salvation". However, if they continue in the faith without maturing in Christ and growing in sanctification, their failure to bear fruit will cause them to be cut off. This is because their carnal desires will stiffle and suffocate the inner reality of God's Spirit. At a given point, known only to Himself, God will bring conviction, temporal judgments (discipline), and finally (if not heeded) God will depart. When they are cut off you will not have to tell them that they are. God will depart from them and they will lose interest in the things of God and fall away. However, don't lose hope for them. God can restore them. However, if they refuse to return and become grafted back in as a branch of the True Vine, Jesus Christ, they will be lost.
I agree and our "behaviour" will also include how we dress. And I am not speaking of the ridiculous teaching of how long your sleeve needs to be.
Let me ask you a question: Are you versed enough to explain to me why women should not wear pants? Are they going to hell? Are you versed enough to tell me why I should not have a tv? Is the ownership of owning a television set gonna send someone to hell? Can you explain why some women get to wear dresses to thier knees is some UPC churches, but in other UPC churches they are going to hell? Are you versed enough to answer these questions? Can you tell me why it is okay for some in the UPC can wear wedding bands and others cannot? are you versed enough to tell me that?
Okay, I buy that you are licensed now. Get up all in it!
hi, I am a licensed minister within the UPC And I have been Apostolic all my life. (3rd generation)
Last night my pastor preached about holiness without giving real scripture. This is quite confusing because I am not versed in the matters of holiness and I do not know how to give answers concerning holiness without hemming and hawwing.
Anyway, my pastor goes on to say that if you believe the lie that charismatics believe you will end up in hell. Well, I was wondering , what if believing in the ideas of holiness as the UPCI puts it is a lie? Would that not send one to hell as well?
thoughts?
the part in bold is the problem not your pastor.
you need to fix you before you start wondering about what others are saying.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
PreacherME, do you believe you have been believing a lie or lies?
__________________
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8 KJV
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2 KJV
I agree and our "behaviour" will also include how we dress. And I am not speaking of the ridiculous teaching of how long your sleeve needs to be.
You are correct. I'm no longer UPCI, though I fellowship them on occasion. When me and my ladylove decide to go to the pool she wears a modest one piece and has a modest matching top that covers the swim suit while around the pool. Back in the day, she'd wear a string bikini without a second thought. Today, not so. She has to be covered most of the time to feel comfortable.
I was beginning to think that I shouldn't have started this thread.
Linear Mode
