A treatise on the upc.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

Actually he's just taking a very honest approach to the early church as recorded in scripture and comparing it to the church now....I actually took the time to read it and while im no greek scholar just the scriptures themselves presented made a compelling argument....its not only applicable to the upc but also all the other denominations.

The age of the article is interesting. Kinda like before its time.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Aquila

In what sense is he "progressive"?

Also, political positions such as conservative, liberal, capitalist, socialist are all just human viewpoints regarding civil social structure and economics. A born again Christian in a socialist country might remain loyal to the socialist party of his choosing without compromising his or her faith. It's interesting to note that biblical economics from the OT presents God structuring ancient Israel as an agrarian socialist/distributist nation.



I don't really know this guy... has he forsaken Christ?

I see no indication on his site that he is a Christian. Only the sour testimony of one who once followed men. There are many people like this. Faith in man does not produce salvation.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I see no indication on his site that he is a Christian. Only the sour testimony of one who once followed men. There are many people like this. Faith in man does not produce salvation.

Probably when all this went down there was not many options for him. That being in S. Dakota.

Once I learned a few things I realized I don't have to backslide.

[kenj]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Apparently now he says the UPC is a cult. He is doing "religous studies" now. He is a "progessive". I take that to mean a left of center liberal, if not a socialist.

I have never wanted to be in the UPC but he would have done better to stay where he was and cultivate a relationship with Jesus than to allow MEN to turn him from Christ.

Hmmm, are we to assume that Jesus is a capitalist?
Teaching "Beware and be on guard against every kind of greed" would seem to disqualify him from that position.

Also you are confusing the person who put up the lisamapherson site, my brother Jeff, who has at least a bachelor's degree in Religious Studies (maybe a masters too, I forget!) with me, the author of the paper in question, who wrote it back in like 1975, if I remember right.

And no one has to stay in a UPC church in order to 'cultivate a relationship with Jesus'. THAT is for sure.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by kenj

Hmmm, are we to assume that Jesus is a capitalist?
Teaching "Beware and be on guard against every kind of greed" would seem to disqualify him from that position.

Also you are confusing the person who put up the lisamapherson site, my brother Jeff, who has at least a bachelor's degree in Religious Studies (maybe a masters too, I forget!) with me, the author of the paper in question, who wrote it back in like 1975, if I remember right.

And no one has to stay in a UPC church in order to 'cultivate a relationship with Jesus'. THAT is for sure.

Well I thought I was reading a link by the writer of the article. Im sorry for my mistake. Heres what I said:

Well no way did I read the extremely long article. But I hit what seemed to be high points. The writer (Jacobsen) attacks Pentecostal errors concerning Ministry and Church life very strongly. Much of what I read is certainly warrented even to this day.

His calling the KJV the most corrupt and inacurate Bible in our modern day is ridiculous. The KJV is not the original Biblical manuscript but in comparison to other English versions in very solid.

I wonder where Bro. Jacobsen is today? Is he still a disciple? Still Pentecostal?

I wonder if the Church he attended was Pastored by Jim Yohe who I think started this Forum or at least its forerunner. Yohe was thought of to be ahead of his time among some Pentecostals. Did he oppose what Jacobsen was teaching or did he side with him?

I agreed with YOU that the Pentecostal Movement is very out of line concerning ministry and Church life.

I disagreed about the KJV. Do you still feel it inaccurate as to modern versions?

I said I wondered where you are today. If you were still Pentecostal. Your story interested me thats why I commented.

I was assuming you to be the writer of the link that was posted. Looking at it gave me the impression the writer was not a solid disciple of Christ. Lots of ideas about other things little about Christ what I saw.

No I dont think one must be a capitalist to be a Christian. All the progressives Im aware of SEEM to be enemies of Jesus. If you want to educate me that there is such a thing as "progressive" Christians I will listen.

Yes I know that one can cultivate a relationship with Christ outside the UPC. I came to know him at my house first. Then in the Jesus Movement and various Charismatic/Pentecostal groups. In all these movements I found men who were corrupt, evil and mean.

My point was that IF the person who spoke on the link had forsaken Christ because men hurt him THEN he would have been better off to stay with the UPC and simply walk by faith in Jesus. Many people that have been damaged by others in the UPC have set their faith in Christ and not allowed men to steal their faith.

I personally dropped out of the mainline "Churches" in about 1982. Ever since then I have been part of house Churches or even internet house meetings.

I was addressing the issue as a concerned Christian. If I had known you were on this Forum I probably would have already talked with you. I have never been a UPC person myself. Always have been a Jesus Person.

So my question is now to you in the first person: Are you still a believer? Are you still Pentecostal?

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by kenj

Hmmm, are we to assume that Jesus is a capitalist?
Teaching "Beware and be on guard against every kind of greed" would seem to disqualify him from that position.

Also you are confusing the person who put up the lisamapherson site, my brother Jeff, who has at least a bachelor's degree in Religious Studies (maybe a masters too, I forget!) with me, the author of the paper in question, who wrote it back in like 1975, if I remember right.

And no one has to stay in a UPC church in order to 'cultivate a relationship with Jesus'. THAT is for sure.

Are you the one who authored that treatise?
If so...I am quite impressed at how you put it together.
What, if I may ask, are you doing presently?

[Michael The Disciple]

Here is the reason I confused you with your brother.

Rudy

Let me state that posting this is not me personally wanting to smear the UPC. I don't think the article actually does that. I do see merit in his article. The time period of which it is written intrigues me.


Here is his webpage.

http://www.jeffjacobsen.org/

This led me to believe the site was yours.

[kenj]

Well, thank you all for your interest.

Yeah, it was years ago I wrote the article. Sorry for the confusion as to authorship. Jeff is my brother and has done years of anti-cult work, as is reflected in his site.


When I first went to the 'JY' UPC it was a decent place, and I got very involved there. But over the years it began to degenerate into more and more of a Jonestown, before there WAS a Jonestown, which I think my article reflects and deals with.

I didn't want to quit there until I'd presented a good explanation why to people who might want to know, and I had to get my 'article' out before I was so demonized by Yohe no one would read it. But JY had already well begun the personal demonization program when he realized I'd quit paying tithes. I’d expected it but was still surprised at how ‘good’ he was at it. It was a nightmarish situation.

Interestingly, after I gave out the article to several people, including JY, nearly everyone that i recall who read it, except JY, immediately quit the church. Over the months after I left, JY eventually fell so far off the deep end he was thrown out by the still-pro-UPC-ers and he slunk back home to Louisianna.

After that I went off to school and was able to take Biblical Greek at a Baptist Bible college, since I’d gotten so fond of it. I’ve kept up with it since then, since it’s so crucial to properly understanding the Bible. Anyone who feels the same way should learn it. The KJV has some good points but the english alone is so outdated, not to mention the translation, it needlessly misleads constantly. A good recent book on the subject is Truth in Translation by Beduhn.


Please feel free to ask more questions if I missed something.

[Rudy]

The whole hierarchy thing with bishops, deacons, etc sounds so willfully deceptive. To say overseers doesn't sound official enough I guess.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by kenj

Well, thank you all for your interest.

Yeah, it was years ago I wrote the article. Sorry for the confusion as to authorship. Jeff is my brother and has done years of anti-cult work, as is reflected in his site.


When I first went to the 'JY' UPC it was a decent place, and I got very involved there. But over the years it began to degenerate into more and more of a Jonestown, before there WAS a Jonestown, which I think my article reflects and deals with.

I didn't want to quit there until I'd presented a good explanation why to people who might want to know, and I had to get my 'article' out before I was so demonized by Yohe no one would read it. But JY had already well begun the personal demonization program when he realized I'd quit paying tithes. I’d expected it but was still surprised at how ‘good’ he was at it. It was a nightmarish situation.

Interestingly, after I gave out the article to several people, including JY, nearly everyone that i recall who read it, except Yohe, immediately quit the church. Over the months after I left, JY eventually fell so far off the deep end he was thrown out by the still-pro-UPC-ers and he slunk back home to Louisianna.

After that I went off to school and was able to take Biblical Greek at a Baptist Bible college, since I’d gotten so fond of it. I’ve kept up with it since then, since it’s so crucial to properly understanding the Bible. Anyone who feels the same way should learn it. The KJV has some good points but the english alone is so outdated, not to mention the translation, it needlessly misleads constantly. A good recent book on the subject is Truth in Translation by Beduhn.


Please feel free to ask more questions if I missed something.

Do you attend any certain local or House Church today? Are you still Oneness? Pentecostal?