To tithe or not to tithe?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Rudy

Abraham was not in need of a Priest, he had access to God. One logical reason he gave a tenth he was following customs/culture of that time. It is historically accepted that a usage tax of 10% seemed to be used even among the pagans.

I say prove it AND if so address Heb 7 and how tithing correlates to him being a PRIEST

[Jacob's Ladder]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

You are talking scripture out of context and avoiding the pertinent information which I detailed in several posts that shows he was tithing to a priest.

Second it does NOT say the King didn't want a tenth. It says Abraham gave him a tenth THEN of the possessions that belonged to the King of Salem the king said Abraham could keep what he recovered except the persons and Abraham refused to take it.

You are confusing two different sets of circumstances because you are talking scripture out of context

It does NOT say Abraham gave a tenth to both kings

Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. (He was priest of God Most High.)
Gen 14:19 And he blessed him and said, "Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth;
Gen 14:20 and blessed be God Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand!" And Abram gave him a tenth of everything.

HIM not THEM. It was NOT directed to both kings but ONE King. Gen 14 tells us that. Hebrews 7 confirms.

Scripture out of context is pretext. READ THE CONTEXT ALWAYS

Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. (He was priest of God Most High.)
Gen 14:19 And he blessed him and said, "Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth;
Gen 14:20 and blessed be God Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand!" And Abram gave him a tenth of everything.
Gen 14:21 And the king of Sodom said to Abram, "Give me the persons, but take the goods for yourself."
Gen 14:22 But Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I have lifted my hand to the LORD, God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth,
Gen 14:23 that I would not take a thread or a sandal strap or anything that is yours, lest you should say, 'I have made Abram rich.'

When you read the context way way back you find that the king Abraham defeated had taken the possessions of Lot and the king of Sodom and the king was speaking of those possessions that belonged to him

Gen 14:11 So the enemy took all the possessions of Sodom and Gomorrah, and all their provisions, and went their way.

Abraham was returning the goods and the people and the King of Sodom was thankful enough to let Abraham keep the goods

Two different events. King of Salem/Tithe. King of Sodom, return of goods

Praxeas,

Did Abraham tithe from the spoils of war or his personal property?

Did Abraham follow proper tithing procedures required under the Mosaic Law when tithing to Melchizedek?

Abraham's tithe to Melchizedek, did it support a Levitical priesthood?


Regards,
Jacob's Ladder

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

Praxeas,

Did Abraham tithe from the spoils of war or his personal property?

Did Abraham follow proper tithing procedures required under the Mosaic Law when tithing to Melchizedek?

Abraham's tithe to Melchizedek, did it support a Levitical priesthood?


Regards,
Jacob's Ladder

I doubt Abraham took all his possessions to a war. So I believe it was his possessions
from the war

This was before the law. We are not under law nor was Abraham.

His tithe went to a priest of God before there was a levitical priesthood.

As I said, tithing predates the law

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I say prove it AND if so address Heb 7 and how tithing correlates to him being a PRIEST

Genesis 13


3 From the Negev he went from place to place until he came to Bethel, to the place between Bethel and Ai where his tent had been earlier 4 and where he had first built an altar. There Abram called on the name of the Lord.

Here we see Abraham built his alter and communed with God. No High Priest needed.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Rudy

Genesis 13


3 From the Negev he went from place to place until he came to Bethel, to the place between Bethel and Ai where his tent had been earlier 4 and where he had first built an altar. There Abram called on the name of the Lord.

Here we see Abraham built his alter and communed with God. No High Priest needed.

That does not prove this idea you have of him giving a tax. Sorry.

That also is irrelevant. Tithing is not paying someone because you NEED a priest.
Please address the FACT that Heb makes it about Melchzedek being a priest.

Also why only that king and not the others?

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

That does not prove this idea you have of him giving a tax. Sorry.

That also is irrelevant. Tithing is not paying someone because you NEED a priest.
Please address the FACT that Heb makes it about Melchzedek being a priest.

Also why only that king and not the others?

Sorry, I misunderstood. Are you saying Abram needs a priest?

Are you wanting me to show the culture of that time concerning land usage?

A question for you--why did Abram give him a tenth?

[DaveC519]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Is that like Kung Fu Charity?

That would be "open palm, hidden checkbook"!

[DaveC519]

Originally Posted by Rudy

If you are going to use the Levitical as a comparison then I can tithe food items. You can't use that as a comparison then jump on ole Melchizedek.

Abraham tithed nothing of his as recorded. So therefore when I win a battle I'll tithe war booty.

Tithing filthy lucre as a command is just not in the new covenant. Supporting ministry is there if a laborer in the Gospel wants and needs it.

I'm fully aware of what a tenth is.

Bouncing back and forth is not hermeneutically sound.

LOL My friend, it's all part of the same package. The principle of the tithe begins and ends with the Melchisedec priesthood. The Levitical priesthood was parenthetical.

[DaveC519]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

What I am saying is that tithe was different from the food which the Levites got from the temple. And Paul was appealing to the food from the temple not the tithes.

Also, the tithing principle you are advocating EXCLUDES anyone besides the Pastor.

However, Paul did not say only Pastors should be supported. He said the Lord ordained that THOSE WHO PREACH THE GOSPEL should live off the gospel.

So that would include missionaries too. Therefore, a person can give their "tithe" to missionaries. But I don't see you advocating for that.

That's because we haven't gotten that far yet!

Once the principle of the tithe is acknowledged to exist under the New Covenant, THEN we can begin to discuss the structure of the ministry, and yes, "they" (not just pastors) who preach the gospel are due support. But the support comes THROUGH the local church.

[DaveC519]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Ok, just felt like I needed to say this on this thread...(lest I come across as if I don't believe in giving, it's the legalism that drives me nuts...lol)

I can't speak for others, but only for myself when I say my argument is not from a standpoint of legalism. However, it does acknowledge that what Paul asserted was indeed a "command". The word he used in 1Cor 9:14 translated as "ordained" in the KJV is from the root diatasso, which is variously translated in the NT as "commanded", "directed", and "appointed". So, whatever it is that we all may be interpreting Paul to say to the church, he does so as an imperative- a command.

Jesus said, "if ye love me, keep my commandments" (Jn 14:15). John said that the commandments of God are "not grievous" (1Jn 5:3). Although I serve in pastoral ministry, I also pay tithes on my increase from a business I have. I do so gladly knowing that out of love for my God I keep his commandment, and it is not grievous.