You are my brethren

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

All they are doing is acknowledging that they have some degree of same gender attraction. They might be delivered from this in the water of baptism. Yet, others might be delivered from it some time later. And still others might struggle with it their whole life long. We are human. We are broken. We aren't glorified in immortal sinless bodies yet. The flesh is still very much alive. And it cries out for things that are repugnant to our spirit sometimes.

I'd not go that far. Yes, they may not fully understand their new identity in Christ. They need to be mentored spiritually and have their minds renewed through the washing of the Word of God. We all come to Christ with mistaken notions and ideas. In time, the Word of God cleanses the mind and assists us with putting on the mind of Christ. We all start from somewhere... and for most... it's a very broken and error ridden place. Sometimes it takes time to discover who we really are in Christ.

Yes... but God accepts the most tender and often weak efforts in repentance. Sometimes it's like a "flicker" in their souls and God takes it and runs with it. It takes sincerity of intention. New born babes are born and crawl, then stumble, fall, fall again, fall again, fall again, until they learn to walk. Then, they learn to run. And then before you know it... their off running the race like champions. But if we kick them because they are just crawling. Or because they have misconceptions. Or if they stumble and fall... their blood is on our hands. I've seen people "repent" and God give them the Holy Ghost... and they still struggle with sin for a season. We make God so tough and tyranical. God wants to save them more than they want to be saved. He truly knows what awaits them.

Holiness isn't hardness. True Holiness is loving and tender. Patient and slow to anger.

What we believe is immaterial. God fills people with His Spirit upon their sincerity and brokenness. They aren't perfect. They get up and must be taught the way. Their misunderstandings corrected. Sometimes... this takes time, even after they are born again.

I remember what it was like being a new convert and knowing next to nothing. Let's not forget what it was like when we were born again. Most of us weren't a 100th of the "theologians" we claim to be now. LOL

I appreciate your well-written response.

I may have misread the statement or misinterpreted what was meant by "identified." It's semantics, I know, but important IMO. Just re-read your original statement that I responded to, and I may be wrong.

If by "identified," you mean past tense, pre-conversion, then I completely read it wrong. "Such were some of you, but you're washed..." I agree that a person could be identified once as a __________ (insert whatever sin you wish), then experience conversion. And even after conversion, they likely will still have temptations and struggles against it.

If by "identified" you mean ongoing pre- and post-conversion, this is what I would question. Repentance is not just asking forgiveness for past mistakes; it's a change of mind that occurs with an individual. You ask forgiveness and decide to change what you were. How you identify yourself should change after repentance. No longer are you the sinner you were; you should neither identify yourself nor be identified by the past sin. Nor can the HG fill an individual whose sins have not been remitted.

Again, perhaps I'm arguing semantics, because I do agree with your response.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

I appreciate your well-written response.

I may have misread the statement or misinterpreted what was meant by "identified." It's semantics, I know, but important IMO. Just re-read your original statement that I responded to, and I may be wrong.

If by "identified," you mean past tense, pre-conversion, then I completely read it wrong. "Such were some of you, but you're washed..." I agree that a person could be identified once as a __________ (insert whatever sin you wish), then experience conversion. And even after conversion, they likely will still have temptations and struggles against it.

If by "identified" you mean ongoing pre- and post-conversion, this is what I would question. Repentance is not just asking forgiveness for past mistakes; it's a change of mind that occurs with an individual. You ask forgiveness and decide to change what you were. How you identify yourself should change after repentance. No longer are you the sinner you were; you should neither identify yourself nor be identified by the past sin. Nor can the HG fill an individual whose sins have not been remitted.

Again, perhaps I'm arguing semantics, because I do agree with your response.

Well, it's a touchy subject today. And there is a large degree of semantics surrounding it. I think we're probably on the same sheet of music even if we use terms the other wouldn't. For example, I know of a devout Pentecostal/Charismatic Christian who has chosen to live a celibate life for Christ. He identifies himself as being a "gay Christian" because he still has the attraction/temptation. Some wouldn't use the term "gay Christian". But if understood, most realize what he's actually saying.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Titus Woman, I would not say one who battles this is lost. No. We can all be bombarded at times with unclean thoughts. Yet consider the standard Yeshua has set.

Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.

We can do better. Christians are called to pure minds. The teachings of men would tell us don't worry about it. God says we need to "perfect holiness in the fear of the Lord".

Thank you for this MTD. It is a battle and I've often been told, even when asking for prayer that I 'just shouldn't worry about it'... but I still read the scripture to say that my thoughts and words should be pleasing to God.

I count on it that God knows I am trying even as I am failing and one day I will be victorious or at least die trying.

When I was saved I believed that I would never sin again... When I swore only a week later (and really over nothing, it just fell off my lips) I cried all day over it.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by n david

Dropping the F-bomb is a bit different than what was described above. You said you "[were] able to drop an F-bomb the very next week." I doubt, at the time of your conversion, you were dropping the F-bomb. What was described was a person who was identifying themselves still; maybe I misread it, because to me a person who's identifying themselves as something, is still participating.

One of the things I hate most about the Christian/Homosexual debate is that it seems to me that as many Christians as Homosexuals believe that Homosexuals were born that way and can not change and/or that they are somehow so much more sexual than the rest of us that they can not possibly choose abstenence. I rebuke that in the name of Jesus Christ. Just because someone's attraction is to the same gender does not mean that they can not live a pure life.

We seem to forget that any sex outside of married sex is sin... homo, hetro, whatever... and lust was still sin too the last time I looked... so most men and women of all sexual preferences are seriously flunking out in that department...Picking on the homos is just tiring.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

Thank you for this MTD. It is a battle and I've often been told, even when asking for prayer that I 'just shouldn't worry about it'... but I still read the scripture to say that my thoughts and words should be pleasing to God.

I count on it that God knows I am trying even as I am failing and one day I will be victorious or at least die trying.

When I was saved I believed that I would never sin again... When I swore only a week later (and really over nothing, it just fell off my lips) I cried all day over it.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

One of the things I hate most about the Christian/Homosexual debate is that it seems to me that as many Christians as Homosexuals believe that Homosexuals were born that way and can not change and/or that they are somehow so much more sexual than the rest of us that they can not possibly choose abstenence. I rebuke that in the name of Jesus Christ. Just because someone's attraction is to the same gender does not mean that they can not live a pure life.

We seem to forget that any sex outside of married sex is sin... homo, hetro, whatever... and lust was still sin too the last time I looked... so most men and women of all sexual preferences are seriously flunking out in that department...Picking on the homos is just tiring.

Titus2wan, let me share some thoughts with you. Please tell me what you think after reading my post. I pray it helps you better understand the position of many who believe in the "born that way" position. I assure you... it's not an excuse for sin. It's only a framework for addressing the issue in it's entirety.

God bless...

I believe that man is a trichotomy. That means that man is body, soul, and spirit. Sin has permeated our entire being. It has severed our spiritual connection with God, it has warped our minds, and it has brought upon us aging, sickness, and death and all forms of genetic and biochemical abberrations.

Sexuality is a very complex animal. Not only is there a spiritual component. But there is also a psychological and biological component. Sexuality is something that encompasses our entire being. The psychological aspects of sexuality have been studied a lot and are well known. The spiritual side is revealed in the Bible. However, biology is ignored by most fundamentalist Christians. Let's consider the development of sexual identity and attraction. When a young person is around the opposite gender, the brain, through the sense of smell, detects pharemones. These stimulate pleasure centers in the brain bringing the sense of "liking" someone, a crush if you will. It's all biochemistry. Normally, the pharemones of the same gender repel each other. Boys "smell" icky to normal boys. But girls... ahhh... magical. Other girls "smell" icky to girls. But boys... ahhh... dreamy. And so from the earliest ages we have our "attractions", even if they are childish crushes with batting eyelids and absolutely no understanding of what finding a mate is all about. It's instinctual. However, with homosexuals... their brains have responded to same gender pharemones from the earliest ages. Even blind studies conducted in Europe demonstrate that homosexual brains respond to same gender pharemone even if they don't even know what they are sniffing. Somewhere in their biology... a wire is crossed. They aren't functioning correctly. And so... "same gender attraction" is part of their biological nature.

Now, that doesn't mean that "God made them that way". In fact... we're ALL sinners by nature. That means that we are ALL born sinners. So if a gay person tells me that they were born gay... I say, "That's correct. All men are born sinners." The biological aspects of the homosexual condition is the result of the fallen nature... the result of SIN in our members. In our flesh is NO good thing.

Now, that doesn't mean that one can't be delivered. You see, being born again restores a man's spiritual union with God, through the Holy Spirit. However, the soul (mind) must be renewed through prayer, study of the Word, and teaching. But here's where we go wrong... we ignore biology. We fail to even consider the nature of our fallen and sinful flesh. The good news is that God has provided for our bodies restoration. It's called... healing. The power of God, if employed correctly through prayer, can heal every malady of the flesh. It can correct genetic and biological imbalances that DO affect behavior and chemical responses in the brain. It's really a no brainer... healing can rewire a man or woman to respond correctly to the opposite gender. However, this CAN'T happen if we ignore it and refuse to acknowledge its reality! We can pray a homosexual through to the Holy Ghost, begin teaching them the Word of God, and FAIL to address the supernatural healing that they need in their body. Sometimes, by God's grace, He heals a man or woman body, soul, and spirit instantly. But most of the time, if left unaddressed the homosexual will receive the Holy Ghost, begin studying the Word, and yet continue to struggle with the biological attractions they've always had. They struggle with why they continue to feel what they feel. And then... we condemn them. Yes... it's almost like a predictable habit... out of ignorance, we shoot our wounded. In most cases they must be encouraged to enter into prayer (and perhaps even fasting) for a healing in order to be completely set free.

Healing is an interesting animal. Sometimes God doesn't heal. For example, some men have hightened hormones that lead to a higher than average sex drive. They've prayed and prayed to be delivered and stablized. However, nothing has changed. In fact, many live their whole lives having to actively manage their sex drive. They face greater temptation in this area, but through Christ, they can overcome with surrender and confession. Same with homosexuals. Sometimes God doesn't heal and the "temptation" remains for their entire life. Perhaps it's a test. Perhaps it's a "thorn in the flesh" to keep them humble and on their knees before God. Perhaps it's a test to see if we are loving and compassionate enough to deal with our fellow fallen man. Perhaps it's all of the above all at once.

So, those are my feelings on it. I don't disregard the findings of science. I just put them in a biblical context. Man is fallen; body, soul, and spirit. Therefore, it stands to reason that sin will have effected the entirety of man; body, soul, and spirit. Let's not forget that even our bodies (our biology) has been twisted by the fall leaving us subject to aging, disease, and all forms of genetic and biochemical maladies. And if sin has effected the entirety of man... so should the solution.

So when many of us say that we believe they are born that way, or that genetics are a factor, please know that it's not an excuse. It's an explanation that we have placed into a biblical framework that addresses the entirety of a man's being; body, soul, and spirit. It also provides an explanation as to why the temptation often lingers after being born again. And... as a result... it offers a solution. Healing. Healing for the whole of a person.

[Aquila]

Is there anyone here that denies that biochemical reactions in the brain don't affect behavior??? Chemical embalances have caused many to suffer from biochemical imbalances in the brain that improperly affect neurotransmitters. This can cause highted states of mania, rage, depression, sense of paranoia, dread, and yes... even promiscuity.

Why don't we want to acknowledge this? It doesn't "normalize" the behavior. It proves it's an abberation, a symptom of the sin principle in our fallen flesh. And, if we're honest about what it is... we can be honest about a solution... healing.

Sadly, those with mental illness and who suffer from chemical embalances in the brain were treated badly and condemned by the church for decades. Today, we acknowledge that some people actually do "need their meds". And because we've acknowledged the truth about the biological factor relating to their behavior... we know to pray for healing. And yes, God has healed countless people from chemical imbalances.

When we properly frame the problem... we can seek a proper and fitting solution. But if we ignore the problem it can never truly be addressed and resolved.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Titus2wan, let me share some thoughts with you. Please tell me what you think after reading my post. I pray it helps you better understand the position of many who believe in the "born that way" position. I assure you... it's not an excuse for sin. It's only a framework for addressing the issue in it's entirety.

God bless...

I believe that man is a trichotomy. That means that man is body, soul, and spirit. Sin has permeated our entire being. It has severed our spiritual connection with God, it has warped our minds, and it has brought upon us aging, sickness, and death and all forms of genetic and biochemical abberrations.

Sexuality is a very complex animal. Not only is there a spiritual component. But there is also a psychological and biological component. Sexuality is something that encompasses our entire being. The psychological aspects of sexuality have been studied a lot and are well known. The spiritual side is revealed in the Bible. However, biology is ignored by most fundamentalist Christians. Let's consider the development of sexual identity and attraction. When a young person is around the opposite gender, the brain, through the sense of smell, detects pharemones. These stimulate pleasure centers in the brain bringing the sense of "liking" someone, a crush if you will. It's all biochemistry. Normally, the pharemones of the same gender repel each other. Boys "smell" icky to normal boys. But girls... ahhh... magical. Other girls "smell" icky to girls. But boys... ahhh... dreamy. And so from the earliest ages we have our "attractions", even if they are childish crushes with batting eyelids and absolutely no understanding of what finding a mate is all about. It's instinctual. However, with homosexuals... their brains have responded to same gender pharemones from the earliest ages. Even blind studies conducted in Europe demonstrate that homosexual brains respond to same gender pharemone even if they don't even know what they are sniffing. Somewhere in their biology... a wire is crossed. They aren't functioning correctly. And so... "same gender attraction" is part of their biological nature.

Now, that doesn't mean that "God made them that way". In fact... we're ALL sinners by nature. That means that we are ALL born sinners. So if a gay person tells me that they were born gay... I say, "That's correct. All men are born sinners." The biological aspects of the homosexual condition is the result of the fallen nature... the result of SIN in our members. In our flesh is NO good thing.

Now, that doesn't mean that one can't be delivered. You see, being born again restores a man's spiritual union with God, through the Holy Spirit. However, the soul (mind) must be renewed through prayer, study of the Word, and teaching. But here's where we go wrong... we ignore biology. We fail to even consider the nature of our fallen and sinful flesh. The good news is that God has provided for our bodies restoration. It's called... healing. The power of God, if employed correctly through prayer, can heal every malady of the flesh. It can correct genetic and biological imbalances that DO affect behavior and chemical responses in the brain. It's really a no brainer... healing can rewire a man or woman to respond correctly to the opposite gender. However, this CAN'T happen if we ignore it and refuse to acknowledge its reality! We can pray a homosexual through to the Holy Ghost, begin teaching them the Word of God, and FAIL to address the supernatural healing that they need in their body. Sometimes, by God's grace, He heals a man or woman body, soul, and spirit instantly. But most of the time, if left unaddressed the homosexual will receive the Holy Ghost, begin studying the Word, and yet continue to struggle with the biological attractions they've always had. They struggle with why they continue to feel what they feel. And then... we condemn them. Yes... it's almost like a predictable habit... out of ignorance, we shoot our wounded. In most cases they must be encouraged to enter into prayer (and perhaps even fasting) for a healing in order to be completely set free.

Healing is an interesting animal. Sometimes God doesn't heal. For example, some men have hightened hormones that lead to a higher than average sex drive. They've prayed and prayed to be delivered and stablized. However, nothing has changed. In fact, many live their whole lives having to actively manage their sex drive. They face greater temptation in this area, but through Christ, they can overcome with surrender and confession. Same with homosexuals. Sometimes God doesn't heal and the "temptation" remains for their entire life. Perhaps it's a test. Perhaps it's a "thorn in the flesh" to keep them humble and on their knees before God. Perhaps it's a test to see if we are loving and compassionate enough to deal with our fellow fallen man. Perhaps it's all of the above all at once.

So, those are my feelings on it. I don't disregard the findings of science. I just put them in a biblical context. Man is fallen; body, soul, and spirit. Therefore, it stands to reason that sin will have effected the entirety of man; body, soul, and spirit. Let's not forget that even our bodies (our biology) has been twisted by the fall leaving us subject to aging, disease, and all forms of genetic and biochemical maladies. And if sin has effected the entirety of man... so should the solution.

So when many of us say that we believe they are born that way, or that genetics are a factor, please know that it's not an excuse. It's an explanation that we have placed into a biblical framework that addresses the entirety of a man's being; body, soul, and spirit. It also provides an explanation as to why the temptation often lingers after being born again. And... as a result... it offers a solution. Healing. Healing for the whole of a person.

It's a plausible hypothesis and obviously very well thought out. It leaves those who struggle with same sex attraction their humanity and dignify at least and is in that respect much kinder and more Christ-like than what most of the 'Christian' community spouts about them being cursed by God and unchangeable. I find that you have a sharp intellect and a good heart and have taken the time to act in love. I find no fault in what you have written here and we agree on much. I won't go back over a lot of what you have written but will add a few things since I am not sure it answers all my questions... not that it should....


I know from my experience working for eight years in an Endocrinology clinic that treated, among other things, people who were born neither male nor female, as we understand them, that 'born that way' is a very complicated issue. Through problems in development in utero, there is much we do not understand about being fearfully and wonderfully but possibly imperfectly made. Many of our patients had ambiguous genitalia that might or might not be able to be surgically made to match their karyotype to their phenotype. And even all genetic answers are not XY or XX... There are XXYs, XYYs, Turners, Klinefelters, clitoral hytrophy and mico-penis cases. Then there are those who do not want surgery but would choose to live as they are. This taught me that things are not always black or white. I believe that our brains likewise do not always develop in exactly the same way either and can be influenced by hormones and chemicals during development and same sex attraction can be the result... so yes technically born that way.

I believe that God can heal, I also believe that sometimes He just doesn't. I think the church often sees a person who is not healed from anything, not just same sex attraction, as somehow having failed God and not being deserving of a healing. I've heard people say terrible things questioning what someone possibly did to 'cause' them to get cancer. I think that people who judge others in their walk with God certainly are not pleasing God by doing so and I wish they would stop.

My life experiences have also taken me to a few different places than most and I've had a lot of up close and personal experiences with another kind of homosexuality. I'll share some of that here as well. I've already revealed that I grew up in and out of foster care and girls homes. In girls homes and all-girls schools (and even a lot mixed gender colleges) lesbianism is rampant. In some of the girls homes I was in 50% or more of girls would have identified themselves as lesbian and up to 80-90% as bisexual or jokingly 'try-sexual' meaning they would try anything at least once. It was the '70 before AIDS and in Cali. the home of free love. But even at a prestigious women's university where one of my doctors attended college (who is now lesbian) she tells me they had a lot of LAGs or Lesbian Until Graduation girls... since girls were available for sex... so these young women were 'situaltionally gay', if you will, and were later easily able to 'switch' to normal hetro relationships, marry and have families. So I absolutely believe there can be and is a social component to homosexuality, it's not all biochemistry.


I also knew two girls from my youth that having identified themselves as lesbian upon returning to their families were not accepted. One attempted to 'live straight' and later committed suicide leaving behind two small children and a note behind to say that she was a fraud. The other moved across the country (CA to NY) and never saw her family again, giving up parents, siblings and extended family. So From this I surmise that there are at least those who believe that they CAN NOT change. Of course there are those who kill themselves because they believe they CAN NOT get off drugs or alcohol or stop desiring someone they can't have or 100 other reasons too so for me that is not 'proof' that they couldn't change. I think socially influenced homosexuality is hugely feared by the church and is the primary reason they are so hateful about it.

So in conclusion I believe it is a muti-factoral issue and we only have a few pieces of the puzzle. Is sin a factor? well... the bible says so but I think the church places more emphasis there and ignores the rest as if it does not exist... Can all homosexuals become heterosexuals? I don't think so, but maybe. Can some, yes definitely. Can they abstain if their religious beliefs do not allow them to practice homosexuality? Yes they can. Should we be the ones deciding who the one are that can or will change... ummm, no that is up to God.

Until all the facts are in will I error on the side of loving kindness? I certainly hope so.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Well, it's a touchy subject today. And there is a large degree of semantics surrounding it. I think we're probably on the same sheet of music even if we use terms the other wouldn't. For example, I know of a devout Pentecostal/Charismatic Christian who has chosen to live a celibate life for Christ. He identifies himself as being a "gay Christian" because he still has the attraction/temptation. Some wouldn't use the term "gay Christian". But if understood, most realize what he's actually saying.

Everyone has their struggle, their own temptation and attractions. But once we experience the death, burial and resurrection through salvation, there should no longer be an identity with the past dead man. Even though there will still be a struggle; even though there still will be temptation, you cannot continue to identify yourself by the sin that was washed away. To do so is to almost reject what happened through salvation; and it's nearly impossible to live an overcoming life if a person continues to identify his/herself by their past sin. If they've been washed and cleansed by baptism, and they are living "devout" and "celibate" why continue to wear the chains of the past by identifying his/herself by the sin of the past? There's no such thing as a _____ (fill in the blank) Christian. You cannot use an adjective of sin to describe a person who has been cleansed from that sin.

Rom 6:4 "...we should walk in newness of life." Yes there may be a continuing struggle; and yes, there may continue to be temptation, but there should be a newness of life that occurs with the old body buried and a new body in Christ.

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

One of the things I hate most about the Christian/Homosexual debate is that it seems to me that as many Christians as Homosexuals believe that Homosexuals were born that way and can not change and/or that they are somehow so much more sexual than the rest of us that they can not possibly choose abstenence. I rebuke that in the name of Jesus Christ. Just because someone's attraction is to the same gender does not mean that they can not live a pure life.

I don't believe they're born that way. We're all born with sin, to be sure, but we were born male or female with the attributes and attractions that come with it. To say someone was born that way suggests God erred or made a mistake in His creation.

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

We seem to forget that any sex outside of married sex is sin... homo, hetro, whatever... and lust was still sin too the last time I looked... so most men and women of all sexual preferences are seriously flunking out in that department...Picking on the homos is just tiring.

Absolutely. I'm not picking on anyone. Nor have I forgotten that sin is sin, including lust, adultery, etc. I questioned a specific statement that was about one type of sin, but if you look at my responses, I've also opened it to __________ fill in the blank with any kind of sin.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Is there anyone here that denies that biochemical reactions in the brain don't affect behavior??? Chemical embalances have caused many to suffer from biochemical imbalances in the brain that improperly affect neurotransmitters. This can cause highted states of mania, rage, depression, sense of paranoia, dread, and yes... even promiscuity.

Why don't we want to acknowledge this? It doesn't "normalize" the behavior. It proves it's an abberation, a symptom of the sin principle in our fallen flesh. And, if we're honest about what it is... we can be honest about a solution... healing.

Sadly, those with mental illness and who suffer from chemical embalances in the brain were treated badly and condemned by the church for decades. Today, we acknowledge that some people actually do "need their meds". And because we've acknowledged the truth about the biological factor relating to their behavior... we know to pray for healing. And yes, God has healed countless people from chemical imbalances.

When we properly frame the problem... we can seek a proper and fitting solution. But if we ignore the problem it can never truly be addressed and resolved.

There was a time when Christians in our part of the world believed that people of color were actually animals and not human... and it wasn't all that long ago. I think you expect much when you ask for transformation in the church from that to understanding biochemical changes on the human brain in just a few short generations. They are just slow to catch up... patience.