Newborns & Children go to hell?! What does the Bib

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by Shawn

I can't believe we're even debating this. Just reminds why I don't come here as much anymore. lol.

[Sabby]

The Creator of living things will send infants and children to hell? He takes NO pleasure in the death of innocents. Period. If Divine vengeance will be wrought upon all that offend (ie: harm, cause injury) "these little ones", it's a non sequitur to say they will "go to hell" when they die.

C'mon. Are we really going to create a doctrine that is ill-defined or not even "there" in the NT using SHADOWS and TYPES in the OT? Really?

[Sabby]

It is to our cultural shame that we have not filled the earth with HIS glory (John 17; Matthew 28:19). It's not the newborns that need repenting


"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:13-17

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

It seems harsh, but were children ever spared God's judgement in the scriptures? Sodom and Gamorah? Kids among the wiped out, even if they were "innocent". The Flood? Children wiped out despite "innocence". Death Angel in Exodus and other times it passed through the camp? Children wiped out despite their "innocence".

I'd like to see a good scriptural position, rather than emotional position, on why children are exempt from judgment if they die before this "age of accountability" (which seems completely made up btw). I cannot fathom the idea of children from birth dying and finding themselves in judgment, but God didn't spare them in the examples set in the OT. If things changed due to the NT and Grace I would like to see a clear scriptural source for it.

Otherwise it just leaves even more of a weight upon parents to not live a sinful life. Their kids' will pay the price not only in this life, but in the next as well.

You are making a false comparison. What you refer to by example was not eternal judgements.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by soopy

well, the truth that remains in what is written, if not delivered--which is most probably that Scripture is fine, it is just the common understanding of it that is generally deficient? One need go no further for there explanation of 'eternal damnation' than 1 Sam 28:19 "Moreover the LORD will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me..." when Samuel is obviously not in damnation?

Nor was Saul, nor is sons burning is hell, they were with Samuel, that should be instructive to the "fire and brimstoners".

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

You are making a false comparison. What you refer to by example was not eternal judgements.

Exactly!!

[MarcBee]

Originally Posted by Shawn

I can't believe we're even debating this.

Yes, hard to believe there is still much of a debate--thought it was settled long ago--that age is no prerequisite for being under the Adamic nature and the curse of sin. But it was probably debated in every Christian era--those who yanked isolated scripture to align with their emotions vs. interpretations that put a heavier weight upon large swaths of scripture that explore the scope and depth of sin. I understand--hell is hard to swallow in the first place, and the baby thing is quite unacceptable to normally sensitive people. Too bad God is not so concerned with our sensitivity that much. A 15 year-old in hell in not much different from a baby in hell. Okay, accept (and teach) the former but not the later !

[Shawn]

you Make God out to sound worse than a thousand Hitlers. Is that who God is to you. In the New Testament did Jesus even once give us that impression.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by MarcBee

Yes, hard to believe there is still much of a debate--thought it was settled long ago--that age is no prerequisite for being under the Adamic nature and the curse of sin. But it was probably debated in every Christian era--those who yanked isolated scripture to align with their emotions vs. interpretations that put a heavier weight upon large swaths of scripture that explore the scope and depth of sin. I understand--hell is hard to swallow in the first place, and the baby thing is quite unacceptable to normally sensitive people. Too bad God is not so concerned with our sensitivity that much. A 15 year-old in hell in not much different from a baby in hell. Okay, accept (and teach) the former but not the later !

You don't know God, nor his Son.

[MarcBee]

Originally Posted by Shawn

you Make God out to sound worse than a thousand Hitlers. Is that who God is to you. In the New Testament did Jesus even once give us that impression.

I guess it's possible I am "making God out to sound like a thousand Hitlers," however I am mostly just taking at face value what I read in the bible. Or rather, face value until the text directs or implies to do otherwise. Admittedly I have also been influenced by hundreds of pentecostal sermons, and a couple dozen books. But please inform me which of the following ought NOT be taken at face value. I'm sure there are one or two anomalies below, but surely not all of them "mean something else." Do they? Jesus speaking in all the below scriptures:

Matthew 25:41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, "Depart from me you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:"

(Nice touch here--an omniscient, omnipotent god didn't really *want* hell to be used for humans, but it just worked out that way none the less.)

Mat 25:46 "and these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Matthew 23:33 "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?"

[In movie True Lies, Jamie Lee Curtis asks Ahnold, "So did you kill anyone today?"
Ahnold: "Yes but they were ALL BAD."]

Mark 9:47 "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched."

Jesus speaks to his church in Thyatira,
Rev. 2:23 ..."I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts...

(The above not necessarily eternal, but seems fairly violent, especially the kill with death part.)

No, the Bible God is not like Hitler. Hitler never had the ability to torture and/or kill 1/3 of the population of the earth, as claimed here,
Rev 9:15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind.

And Hitler never had the power to so accurately measure how much blood he had spilled.
Rev. 14:19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses' bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.

Matthew 10:28
"and do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
--J.C.