Well both I guess, you have to control people at a certain level to keep a certain level of order, while at the same time need order to control people.
We are all slaves, we are all followers, but who will be our lord and master?
Problem is over time it has failed time and time again. Yes, some are very good at perfecting this type system of order but what are they left with. When the man that created this passes from the scene or fails, the people living in the fear year after year seem to self destruct. Jesus is but a sidebar.
Maybe I am just having a sober moment this morning - or perhaps some will think I am drinking the kool aid but here goes:
It is really easy to be critical of a church, organization, or even a specific minister. I do not condone outright false doctrine, but I know that those who preach a harder line on lifestyle then I live and also in most cases doing more for the kingdom of God then I have ever done in my life.
Alot of these men and women are leading others to Jesus and are handling the burden of leadership on a level that I personally know nothing about. I have no right to talk negative about anybody in the UPC, WPF, or Independant or whatever.
I have to look at myself in the mirror and ask what I am doing for God today, this week, this year etc. I am compelled to love my brothers and sisters, regardless of what I may feel is necessary or not - or what i may perceive as controlling etc. Look at the body of the work they are laying their hands to, if souls are being saved - who cares how ridgid their standards are.
Some folks will thrive in a militant rules filled environment, some will not. The bottom line is we are to work out our own Salvation with both fear and trembling - we are not called to measure ourselves by ourselves.
Here's a detailed response for the statement above...
The UPCI is NOT a cult in the derogatory definition you're meaning. You're not forced to do anything. You can leave anytime you want. No one is making you attend, be involved, give, or follow their "rules." Calling the UPCI a cult is just absurd. You don't like the organization, fine; Lord knows, I've had my bad experiences with a few officials in the UPCI also. However, even with those experiences, it's not a cult.
Yes, there are some really bad officials, pastors and ministers in the organization; but you'll find that in ANY organization, it's not just limited to the UPCI.
I would agree that this is the UPC today and for even the past decade. MY experience occurred during the 80's when there were large swaths of VERY conservative/controlling/nut job pastors who still held license. I mean, my goodness, just read an old issue of the Apostolic Contender newsletter for an example. At that time the general member was NOT allowed to leave, at least he or she was not allowed to leave with his soul intact. One of our pastors had the time had seemingly endless stories of people who DID leave, and promptly died or worse, felt God "leave them" and never return. Of course this didn't happen just from leaving, but also from merely questioning the "man of gawd!". So just like most cults, the UPC could say "our doors are never locked. People can leave whenever they want." In truth that was not the case at all.
Here's a detailed response for the statement above...
The UPCI is NOT a cult in the derogatory definition you're meaning. You're not forced to do anything. You can leave anytime you want. No one is making you attend, be involved, give, or follow their "rules." Calling the UPCI a cult is just absurd.
The first day I attended ours months back, my "liaison" if you will, told me the their number one thing was attendance. I liked this, as all other Churches aside from Menno's honestly never cared if you came, or at least never mentioned it. We need this as we are weak, and lack spiritual discipline.
They do not push being involved, not yet anyways.
They do have rules/guidelines, but when I look at this town and all the Churches we've witnessed, the only one that carry 100yr marker are those that have such rules. The devil does attack the Church, and without scriptural guidelines he comes right in and the Church dies.
I've witnessed a Southern Baptist where the preachers grandson laid down and slept in the back pews. Another Baptist where kids played DSgames during service. A Vineyard where a man walked away from communion drinking a big gulp. Another after another after another...
I DO NOT want us becoming that, I DO NOT want my boys becoming that.
Maybe many of you on here have the discipline, but look at us living of the world, we have NONE. We need to be taught this.
What I am hearing you say is that the UPCI is controlling and you desire and appreciate that as it fills a need in your life and helps you to accomplish things that you believe you are failing at on your own. I think that is reasonable and that perhaps many of us at one time or another may have used the standards of the UPCI for that whether consciously or not.
We have made every attempt to become more God-reliant and less self reliant or church reliant. That is now what is working for us but we've come through many things on our way here.
Stay prayerful and press on where God leads you. Never sear your conscience to stay with ANY group or org. and you should be fine.
For us personally, home-church seem to be working really well right now but we are always open to God's leading.
Im not sure who you are "hearing" but it sure aint me.
and I am very happy you have found your place. Home Church is awsome. I have recomended such to folk here who lamented an inability to find a place to fit...
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
Dear Ferd anything that does not conform to your ideas is a buncha blather, only your words are full of wisdom, allow me to bow down in humility before you. I am overpowered by your great and magnificent wise counsel rather than the buncha blather from everyone else.
Mr. Sword, i am sorry you cant see the forrest for the trees. But you are wrong. I have taken issue with 2 things in this thread.
1. You dont need a preacher to offer correction to your life. (for this I was told my reply which was strictly scripture was out of line)
2. The UPCI is a cult. (in light of the previously mentioned discorse, I chose the opposite, offer disagreement sans explination... I get told I am out of line)
interesting...
I have NOT suggested anyone needed to belong to a UPCI church. I have not offered criticism for anyone who has walked away from a UPCI church.
in the link you will find me recommending a church in South Forth Worth. That church is far more liberal than I am, and is an X-UPCI church. I not only recommend the church itself, but recommend the pastor as he is someone I have a great deal of respect for. He and I don’t agree on a lot of things.
so get a life, grow up and start reading for comprehension.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
if the UPCI is a cult by your all's definition of a cult...then the NT Church was indeed also a cult.
The UPCI preaches the Gospel as the Apostles preached it. My issue with the org itself is an increase in worldliness. There are still many great men in the UPCI.
I would agree that this is the UPC today and for even the past decade. MY experience occurred during the 80's when there were large swaths of VERY conservative/controlling/nut job pastors who still held license. I mean, my goodness, just read an old issue of the Apostolic Contender newsletter for an example. At that time the general member was NOT allowed to leave, at least he or she was not allowed to leave with his soul intact. One of our pastors had the time had seemingly endless stories of people who DID leave, and promptly died or worse, felt God "leave them" and never return. Of course this didn't happen just from leaving, but also from merely questioning the "man of gawd!". So just like most cults, the UPC could say "our doors are never locked. People can leave whenever they want." In truth that was not the case at all.
I remember growing up in the 80s and hearing at every revival (especially youth camps) the haunting story of the teen who turned his back on God at camp only to die in a car crash on the way home from that camp. Sure, there were scare tactics used a lot back in the day....but you could still leave. Yes, you would be warned about the impending fire and brimstone that would be targeting you the moment you left the church; but you could still leave.
Many confuse not being able to leave with not wanting to leave the comfort of friends and family they've known for years and having to join a new congregation. In almost every instance of someone telling me they couldn't leave the church, it was followed closely by them saying it was too difficult because of the connections. Of course it's difficult; most change is. But impossible? No.
Mr. Sword, i am sorry you cant see the forrest for the trees. But you are wrong. I have taken issue with 2 things in this thread.
1. You dont need a preacher to offer correction to your life. (for this I was told my reply which was strictly scripture was out of line)
There seems to be a miscommunication here, I have never said that people do not need a preacher to offer correction in your life, I said something different.
I said that preachers are responsible to teach the congregation and parents are responsible to teach their children.
I am myself a preacher and I preach the word of God, yet I would never dare to try to displace the role of the parents with their children. They are their children not mine.
2. The UPCI is a cult. (in light of the previously mentioned discorse, I chose the opposite, offer disagreement sans explination... I get told I am out of line)
Well I have never said the UPC is a cult, not once, what I do say and sustain is that they do have many man-made rules that are not in the Bible.
The most I would dare to call the UPC is a domineering organization, but never would I label them as a cult.
You see, I consider the UPC as saved brethren, even though some of them would not even consider me a brother.
interesting...
I have NOT suggested anyone needed to belong to a UPCI church. I have not offered criticism for anyone who has walked away from a UPCI church.
in the link you will find me recommending a church in South Forth Worth. That church is far more liberal than I am, and is an X-UPCI church. I not only recommend the church itself, but recommend the pastor as he is someone I have a great deal of respect for. He and I don’t agree on a lot of things.
so get a life, grow up and start reading for comprehension.
If you want to keep saying "But you are wrong" and "so get a life, grow up and start reading for comprehension" you are free to do so.
After all I am kind of used to this behavior from UPC members, I am very kind and nice to the UPC folk even though most of them are usually dismissive of me and are mean to me.
__________________
**Original Matthew 28:19 Restored**
perfect!
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