Where do the lost spend eternity? Really!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Timmy

OK, yielding control, but able to stop yielding control if they wanted to. I'll accept that. But you said you tried to speak English and couldn't. That, to me, implies you were unable to stop "yielding", at least until it was all over.

I don't know that I could have gained control or not. I just know when I tried to say something in english it came out something else

Are you saying what Benny Hinn does is not the real thing? How do you know that?

He has several claimed healings that are all unverifiable. His ministry is out in the open and subject to scrutiny. Being out in the open like that allows the fakes to make more mistakes.

I figured out that I faked it after many years of observation (of myself and others), thinking back about my experiences, study, and hearing others admit it. BTW, the term "faked it" is kind of tricky. If I believed it was real (and I did) but it wasn't, is that really faking? "Delusion" may be more accurate.

I don't know, you were the one that said you faked it. How do you know at first it was real but later on you began to fake it?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Timmy

But I didn't know right then. I was deluded for a long time. It took many years to figure it out.

How do you know you aren't deluded now but weren't then? Just because others have admitted to the same thing does not mean you are all right

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Do you believe that speaking in tongues is necessary for salvation, Praxeas?

I believe tongues is the expected initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost. I believe it is the normative biblical experience. Having said that I will not limit God and a person to say that they were not baptized with the Spirit if they did not speak in tongues, however I would say that if they really do have it and are consistantly walking with the Lord and praying and interceding for others that eventually they should speak in tongues

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

How do you know you aren't deluded now but weren't then?

I don't. When it comes down to it, nobody can really know with 100% certainty that anything is "real" or not. You may think you do (are you 100% sure?), because of your experience of not being able to speak English when you tried. But God taking over your speech is not the only possible explanation. You think that's what happened because you were praying for the baptism and you were expecting to speak in tongues, and you take it on faith that what happened was God's doing. It was the same with me (with some differences in the mechanics).

You say hypnosis is bogus. OK, there is some controversy over its validity, but you do admit that "suggestion" plays a role in things like the Benny Hinn Show. The human mind is very complex and no one understands all of its workings. We do know that it can be fooled into believing many things that aren't true. It happens every day, in fact. And suggestion and expectations are a powerful influence, not to mention peer pressure.

Your question applies to you, too. How do you know you're not deluded in thinking that it was God speaking through you? Pointing to scriptures and claiming that you were experiencing the same thing may make you feel more secure in your belief, but it isn't proof. (Not that I'm really asking for proof! I don't think that would even be possible.)

Likewise, I do not have iron-clad proof that my experience (or yours, especially!) was fake. But I have concluded that it is the most likely explanation. Among other things, it gets back to a point I made before: what good is "evidence" if it is so easily faked?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Timmy

I don't. When it comes down to it, nobody can really know with 100% certainty that anything is "real" or not. You may think you do (are you 100% sure?), because of your experience of not being able to speak English when you tried.

That was subtle. No sir. It is not "I could not speak english", It's that when I tried to speak english I spoke in other languages in stead...tongues.

But God taking over your speech is not the only possible explanation. You think that's what happened because you were praying for the baptism and you were expecting to speak in tongues, and you take it on faith that what happened was God's doing. It was the same with me (with some differences in the mechanics).

Actually after 6 months I was no longer expecting to speak in tongues. I just instead put aside all my doubts and just worshiped God and called on the name of Jesus and it happened. Same thing happened to Methodists long before the Pentecostal movement. Nobody taught them that they would or could speak in tongues. It just happened.

You say hypnosis is bogus.

I never said hypnosis is bogus. I said the idea that one person is hypnotising people so they speak in tongues is bogus.

OK, there is some controversy over its validity, but you do admit that "suggestion" plays a role in things like the Benny Hinn Show.

Auto suggestion whereby people intentionally fall on cue happens. People that have never seen anyone do that and do not expect it to happen have had it happen anyways. That is not auto suggestion. I "fell" down when I first spoke in tongues. Never did it before. Did not want to do it. Did not think it was gonna happen. Did not see others do it. It just happened. Nobody pushed me. Nobody pulled me. Nobody suggested during that service it would happen.

The human mind is very complex and no one understands all of its workings. We do know that it can be fooled into believing many things that aren't true. It happens every day, in fact. And suggestion and expectations are a powerful influence, not to mention peer pressure.

The same people that put forth these theories to begin with also suggest religion is just a psychological thing and that there is no Jesus. We have been duped and hypnotized etc etc. So what can that say? There are fakes and there are genuines perhaps? Just because there are fakes is no reason to throw away what you received as a genuine experience

Your question applies to you, too. How do you know you're not deluded in thinking that it was God speaking through you? Pointing to scriptures and claiming that you were experiencing the same thing may make you feel more secure in your belief, but it isn't proof. (Not that I'm really asking for proof! I don't think that would even be possible.)

For you it is not proof, but our faith is based on the word of God. We are told to test everything. Here is the difference. After over 20 years of hearing the mockers, scoffers and skeptics, I am still convinced Jesus is Lord. I am still convinced I have Jesus IN me. I can still feel His Spirit and Love and I can still speak in tongues. I have also given messages in tongues that were interpreted by someone else. If I am deluded....why would I not delude myself into giving messages in tongues more often? In fact I gave one message in tongues after over 20 years of being a Pentecostal and never did it before and it's been a year I think since then...how is that hypnotism?

Also who did the hypnotizing? Nobody was speaking. We were just worshiping God

Likewise, I do not have iron-clad proof that my experience (or yours, especially!) was fake. But I have concluded that it is the most likely explanation. Among other things, it gets back to a point I made before: what good is "evidence" if it is so easily faked?

What evidence do you have of a savior or a God? What can't be faked today? But the evidence and experience was GOOD for me. It still is. I am just as passionate about Jesus than I have ever been. I know from my set of circumstances and the situations that I did not fake it. I don't know how to fake it.

What if I really don't speak in tongues? What does that mean?

What if you really DID speak in tongues, but now you have rejected the gift of God...what does THAT mean?

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

That was subtle. No sir. It is not "I could not speak english", It's that when I tried to speak english I spoke in other languages in stead...tongues.

Subtle? Too subtle for me! What are you talking about? What's the difference in those two statements? (Other than the extra detail in yours that instead of English you spoke in tongues.) You could not speak English, right?

Seriously, you try too hard to make me look bad, sometimes! Relax, let me do it myself!

What if I really don't speak in tongues? What does that mean?

That you are deluded.

What if you really DID speak in tongues, but now you have rejected the gift of God...what does THAT mean?

That I erred on the side of common sense.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. I said that I don't ask proof from you, and that's true, but it would be within my rights to do so, or anyone else's rights when they see tongues practiced or preached. The only reason I am not is that I know there isn't proof, and probably can't be. (I say probably, because I could imagine a scenario that would be very convincing - like someone I am 100% certain does not know any English speaking perfect English. But that would be xenoglossy, as in Acts 2, not glossolalia, which is more common today, I think.)

It's an extraordinary thing to consider: God taking over your speech and making something in a heavenly language come out. God Himself! That's one of the most astonishing things there could be! It seems to be taken pretty lightly among most pentecostals today, considering what it is claimed to be.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Subtle? Too subtle for me! What are you talking about? What's the difference in those two statements? (Other than the extra detail in yours that instead of English you spoke in tongues.) You could not speak English, right?

Seriously, you try too hard to make me look bad, sometimes! Relax, let me do it myself!



That you are deluded.



That I erred on the side of common sense.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. I said that I don't ask proof from you, and that's true, but it would be within my rights to do so, or anyone else's rights when they see tongues practiced or preached. The only reason I am not is that I know there isn't proof, and probably can't be. (I say probably, because I could imagine a scenario that would be very convincing - like someone I am 100% certain does not know any English speaking perfect English. But that would be xenoglossy, as in Acts 2, not glossolalia, which is more common today, I think.)

It's an extraordinary thing to consider: God taking over your speech and making something in a heavenly language come out. God Himself! That's one of the most astonishing things there could be! It seems to be taken pretty lightly among most pentecostals today, considering what it is claimed to be.

I personally know of three cases 1. A friend was in the interior of Mexico and a lady recieved the HG and spoke in English praising God 2. A friend was in Brazil and a small child recieved the Holy Ghost and spoke in perfect English praising God. 3. A pastor friend was pastoring in St. Louis years ago and a visitor came in and sat down. My friend began to speak in tongues and after service the man came and tried to talk to him in Hebrew and when he saw the confusion on my friends face he said I know you speak Hebrew you were telling me God sent me here to repent in Hebrew of course my friend did good to speak in English much less Hebrew.
Also I was preaching a meeting in Vidor, Tx. years ago and a deaf mute recieved the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues and had never uttered a word before or honestly since but that night I HEARD her speaking in tongues myself along with her family. We did some more shouting I am telling you.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I personally know of three cases 1. A friend was in the interior of Mexico and a lady recieved the HG and spoke in English praising God 2. A friend was in Brazil and a small child recieved the Holy Ghost and spoke in perfect English praising God. 3. A pastor friend was pastoring in St. Louis years ago and a visitor came in and sat down. My friend began to speak in tongues and after service the man came and tried to talk to him in Hebrew and when he saw the confusion on my friends face he said I know you speak Hebrew you were telling me God sent me here to repent in Hebrew of course my friend did good to speak in English much less Hebrew.
Also I was preaching a meeting in Vidor, Tx. years ago and a deaf mute recieved the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues and had never uttered a word before or honestly since but that night I HEARD her speaking in tongues myself along with her family. We did some more shouting I am telling you.

I've heard many such stories, too. And I've even read here on this forum examples of blatant dishonesty among pentecostals (don't make me list them!), and have seen it many times in person. The credibility of stories like these and other "miracles" is low, to say the least. The temptation to seem powerful and super spiritual is enormous. It's so easy to twist a few of the details, to make the story "better", and especially if the result (building the faith of the listeners, or bringing in a better offering) is noble. So they think they're justified.

As for the deaf mute, some deaf people learn to speak. Some do not, and sometimes it's for reasons of embarrassment at how they will sound. It's not that they can't speak. They (usually) do have functioning vocal chords etc., and could vocalize if they wanted to. Here's a wonderful opportunity to "speak" without caring what they sound like. Tongues! It's not surprising that a deaf mute would take advantage of the opportunity, and kick off a great shockamoo, to boot!

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Timmy

I've heard many such stories, too. And I've even read here on this forum examples of blatant dishonesty among pentecostals (don't make me list them!), and have seen it many times in person. The credibility of stories like these and other "miracles" is low, to say the least. The temptation to seem powerful and super spiritual is enormous. It's so easy to twist a few of the details, to make the story "better", and especially if the result (building the faith of the listeners, or bringing in a better offering) is noble. So they think they're justified.

As for the deaf mute, some deaf people learn to speak. Some do not, and sometimes it's for reasons of embarrassment at how they will sound. It's not that they can't speak. They (usually) do have functioning vocal chords etc., and could vocalize if they wanted to. Here's a wonderful opportunity to "speak" without caring what they sound like. Tongues! It's not surprising that a deaf mute would take advantage of the opportunity, and kick off a great shockamoo, to boot!

I am sad for you that is all I have to say. You disbelieving does not change a thing. The lady spoke in tongues she has family in the church they had NEVER heard her speak or she has not spoken since and is yet in the church.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I am sad for you that is all I have to say. You disbelieving does not change a thing. The lady spoke in tongues she has family in the church they had NEVER heard her speak or she has not spoken since and is yet in the church.

Do you believe every story you hear from Apostolic missionaries, evangelists, and pastors? Would you believe the stories of miracles that Mormons tell? How about Catholics? Do you believe Scientologists?

Why are you people surprised when someone doesn't just automatically believe everything you say?