The doctrine of subsequence

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Luke

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

1. Who is this verse speaking to?
If we go back to verse one Peter there tells us that it is to those of like precious faith. Also it tells us in this verse that they babe escaped the corruption that is in the world. Therefore it is obvious from the context and from the scripture it self that it is addressed to Christians.

2. To whom were the promises given? Christians .

3. Why were they given? That by these ye MIGHT be partakers of the divine nature.

Just by simply examining each part of the scripture it is obvious that there is something spoken of here beyond salvation that is offered to Christians but not to sinners.

If people are partakers of the divine nature at the point of salvation what is the purpose of the exceeding great and precious promises. Why would Peter say that by these promises those who are saved might be or are enabled to partake of the divine nature if they already had. Also why would he specifically make having escaped the corruption that is in the world (being saved) a condition to receive these promises if we already received what the the promises offered?

I take note that Peter is leading up to gaining eternal life in verse 11, so I can only think he refers to our divine nature (might be) in the same way as is mentioned in I John 3:2 - We are sons of God NOW, but when He appears we will be like Him - "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

1 Corinthians 15:53-54 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Luke

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

1. Who is this verse speaking to?
If we go back to verse one Peter there tells us that it is to those of like precious faith. Also it tells us in this verse that they babe escaped the corruption that is in the world. Therefore it is obvious from the context and from the scripture it self that it is addressed to Christians.

And - since they had in fact escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust does this not mean they were in fact 'cleansed' and 'sanctified'? Can a person escape the corruption that is in the world and not be consecrated and set apart to God?

2. To whom were the promises given? Christians .

3. Why were they given? That by these ye MIGHT be partakers of the divine nature.

Just by simply examining each part of the scripture it is obvious that there is something spoken of here beyond salvation that is offered to Christians but not to sinners.

Nothing is offered to Christians that is not offered to sinners upon the condition of their becoming Christians. Nobody is arguing for, or ever could argue for, the cleansing and purification and sanctification of anyone without them being in Christ. However, the same is true of justification, pardon, remission of sins, etc - everything is conditional upon being in Christ. In Christ we have forgiveness, cleansing, justification, sanctification, empowerment, and eventually we will have bodily resurrection.

but let me prove that the OFFER of being made holy is made to those commonly known as 'sinners':

1Jo 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Here justification and 'cleansing' or entire sanctification are joined together. In coming to Christ we are promised two things - pardon, and cleansing. It is promised to those who need to 'confess their sins'. The cleansing is due to Him being 'faithful and just', that is, He is faithful to His promise and righteous (He will not arbitraily deny the fulfillment of His promises), just as He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.

If people are partakers of the divine nature at the point of salvation what is the purpose of the exceeding great and precious promises

The exceeding great and precious promises are the REASONS people come to Christ to begin with. What exactly are the promises? Forgiveness, cleansing, new life, resurrection, eternal life, knowing God in truth, walking with God, etc. By these promises we partake of the divine nature.

Why would Peter say that by these promises those who are saved might be or are enabled to partake of the divine nature if they already had.

I already explained that, though perhaps not so well. Let me try again. You see the words 'that ... ye might partake' as meaning they were not at that time partaking. But that is not the only way those words can be taken. They can be taken to mean that it is by the promises of God that people partake of the Divine nature.

Suppose we are friends. We have friendship. Suppose I say to you 'I have made promises and commitments to you, that through those promises you might share in my friendship.' Would you then conclude 'Oh, that means I am not sharing in that friendship yet. Silly me, I was mistaken all this time...'??? Of course not, you would simply understand my statement to mean that the promises and commitments I made to you are the means by which you participate in friendship with me. My words would NOT require 'subsequence' in time.

Also why would he specifically make having escaped the corruption that is in the world (being saved) a condition to receive these promises if we already received what the the promises offered?

He did not make it a condition, he simply stated that is what had happened with them. He did not say 'escaping the corruption that is in the world through lust is a condition to receiving the exceeding great and precious promises'. Although, even if he did, it simply means that escaping from the corruption that is in the world through lust is a condition to partaking of the divine nature, just as coming to Christ is a condition to partaking in forgiveness. It does not mean you come to Christ first, then at a later time you experience a 'second work of forgiveness'. Rather, it means you receive forgiveness in the experience of coming to Christ, because one results from the other.

I think you are mistaking consequence for subsequence.

[Esaias]

More evidence cleansing (or 'sanctification') is a promise offered to sinners (in the context of my previous post, of course):

Jam 4:8
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

This is parallelism - people need to draw nigh to God. Who? Sinners, the double minded. They need to 'cleanse their hands, and purify their hearts'.

Mat 23:26
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Jesus specifically told a sinner to get inward sanctification first, so that the outward life may be cleansed. This is exactly 180 degrees opposite to Wesleyan Holiness 'second blessing' theology.

2Cr 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2Cr 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

2Cr 6:18
And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

7:1

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Here, the promises are that God would receive people, be their God, they would be His people, He would dwell in them, upon condition of their separation from sin and separation unto God (this is the textbook definition of 'sanctification, by the way). THEREFORE, having those promises, holiness is to be perfected in the fear of God. To whom were the promises made? The promises include 'I will be a father to you'. Does this mean a born again child of God who has not yet been sanctified in a second work does not have God for their Father?

This is, in effect, the gospel call - separate from the world, be consecrated to God, and He will dwell in us and be our Father. And the proper response to that call is to be cleansed from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

[mizpeh]

Concerning the discussion on sanctification...one question; what does it mean to be "led of the Spirit"?

[Luke]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Concerning the discussion on sanctification...one question; what does it mean to be "led of the Spirit"?

To walk in the Spirit is to live a sanctified life and therefore to walk free from the carnal nature. Which will result in living free of sin.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Luke

To walk in the Spirit is to live a sanctified life and therefore to walk free from the carnal nature. Which will result in living free of sin.

What does that look like? How do we walk in the Spirit?

To tell someone to "walk in the Spirit and you won't gratify the desires of the flesh" or "live a sanctified life and you will walk free from the carnal nature"...what does that mean? What does that look like?

[Luke]

It looks like a life a submission to God. Have you ever read the book in His steps? That is a good picture. It is basically living your life with the one goal of glorifying God in all things.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Luke

It looks like a life a submission to God. Have you ever read the book in His steps? That is a good picture. It is basically living your life with the one goal of glorifying God in all things.

Can a person do this from the moment of initial faith in Christ?

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Can a person do this from the moment of initial faith in Christ?

From initial salvation they can and should desire to but they cannot because of the flesh still wars within them.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Luke

From initial salvation they can and should desire to but they cannot because of the flesh still wars within them.

So then a person who is 'saved' is not being led of the spirit?

A person who is 'justified' and 'right with God' is not being led of the spirit?

A person who is right with God, has repented of their sins, is justified... is not 'submitted to God'? So they are still in rebellion against God?

Wouldn't that mean they are still... sinners? IE living in rebellion against God, have not obeyed God, do not obey God...

In fact CANNOT obey God, CANNOT submit to God until God does something in them?