Why Baptism Doesn't Wash Away Sins, Acts 10:43

[Dordrecht]

Originally Posted by mfblume

It's not "religion" to believe baptism in water is baptism into Christ's death. It's bible.

Believing it's a condition for salvation is religion.

Let me ask you this again:

When a person repents and comes to Christ, that person is saved. The Bible says so.

Now this person decides to get baptized a week later and gets killed in the car on his way to the baptism service.......is that person going to hell because he/she was not baptized ?

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Dordrecht

Believing it's a condition for salvation is religion.

Let me ask you this again:

When a person repents and comes to Christ, that person is saved. The Bible says so.

Now this person decides to get baptized a week later and gets killed in the car on his way to the baptism service.......is that person going to hell because he/she was not baptized ?

I related a true (assuming the UPC evangelist was truthful) story here on the forum just a few weeks ago. The lady was Holy Ghost filled on Sunday night, but killed the following Tuesday in an automobile accident before she was to be baptized on Wednesday.

If baptism is a requirement to miss hell, then she is a Holy Ghost filled, tongue talking individual who is/will be burning in hell for she was not baptized.

Of course the same thing could be said for Holy Ghost filled trinitarians. Holy Ghost filled and baptized but baptized wrong. Their baptism doesn't count, it's not valid so it's the same as them not being baptized. Billions of Holy Ghost filled, tongue talking individuals in heaven because another man said the wrong words over them while immersing them.

Go figure.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Dordrecht

Believing it's a condition for salvation is religion.

Let me ask you this again:

When a person repents and comes to Christ, that person is saved. The Bible says so.

Show me where the bible says that.,

Now this person decides to get baptized a week later and gets killed in the car on his way to the baptism service.......is that person going to hell because he/she was not baptized ?

All of these hypothetical questions.

If the intention was to get baptized, they are saved. Baptism is NT circumcision. Abraham was deemed righteous before circumcision, but do you think God woudl have deemed him so if He foreknew Abraham would refuse circumcision?

The bible says baptism is part of salvation. Baptism saves, Peter said in 1 Peter 3 and Jesus said belief and baptism effects salvation in Mark 16:16. Plain as day.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Dordrecht

That refers not to water baptism but to "being baptized into Christ". (Romans 6:3)

You believe something here that 99.999% of scholars would say is wrong.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

All of these hypothetical questions.

They're not hypothetical. See my story above.

If the intention was to get baptized, they are saved. Baptism is NT circumcision. Abraham was deemed righteous before circumcision, but do you think God woudl have deemed him so if He foreknew Abraham would refuse circumcision?

The bible says baptism is part of salvation. Baptism saves, Peter said in 1 Peter 3 and Jesus said belief and baptism effects salvation in Mark 16:16. Plain as day.

Contradictory scripture. Either baptism saves or it does't.

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Does baptism now save us? No, it doesn't, it's baptism plus something else in another scripture....

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

That passage is at odds with 1 Peter 3:21. Or at the very least, 1 Peter 3:21 is lacking, is incomplete. One cannot take 1 Peter 3:21 at face value.

So a person says, ok I believe and I'm baptized. I'm saved and some would say, hold on, not so fast. Have you received the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues? You may have believed, been baptized (and it must be an acceptable baptism) but you still aren't saved. Even though 1 Peter says you are saved when you're baptized, Jesus Himself said that you must believe and be baptized. Paul was lacking in his discourse. He didn't even mention Spirit baptism.

So, we pick and choose which scriptures to use in order to support our theology and argue and quote and argue and quote and accomplish little, if anything, for the Kingdom of God.

Examples such as this is why the church is powerless, choosing to argue about a flawed book instead of becoming more intimate with God. It's not possible to have deeper intimacy with anyone, including God, by reading about them in a book. It has to be personal.

[houston]

I am with Blumeberg... baptism is the circumcision of the heart! I don't know anyone else that believes that.


That being said, Abraham's faith is what justified him. Circumcision was a sign of his covenant with God. These mythical people that refuse to be baptized are refusing to enter into covenant with God, they are showing that they do not have faith, they are not justified.

Now, baptism to obtain forgiveness? No! Baptism because of forgiveness... Do sinners enter into a covenant with God?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by houston

I am with Blumeberg... baptism is the circumcision of the heart! I don't know anyone else that believes that.


That being said, Abraham's faith is what justified him. Circumcision was a sign of his covenant with God. These mythical people that refuse to be baptized are refusing to enter into covenant with God, they are showing that they do not have faith, they are not justified.

Now, baptism to obtain forgiveness? No! Baptism because of forgiveness... Do sinners enter into a covenant with God?

The word in the Greek is "in order that your sins may be forgiven". But that does not mean baptism washes away sins, or that your forgiven on the basis of baptism.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Originalist

The word in the Greek is "in order that your sins may be forgiven". But that does not mean baptism washes away sins, or that your forgiven on the basis of baptism.

But doesn't that "in order that your sins may be forgiven" grammatically lines up with the command to repent?


The reason why THIS discussion is important follows.
At the heart of the UPCI's faulty theology is a works-based, legalistic salvation message that is not biblical.

So while the Apostles may have never sought to disect the role of baptism in one's salvation, the Apostle Paul would stand against the message that is preached by the UPCI. The spirit of the message is not biblical. Acts 2:38 is in the Bible for sure-- but not the way it is presented in Oneness circles and SURELY the Apostle Paul would stand against anyone who would believe in their heart that others are not saved because they were not baptized in the Name of Jesus.

When I speak of the "spirit" of the UPCI's message not being biblical, the last sentecnce in the paragraph above is an example of that erroneous spirit that permeates Oneness doctrine. So is the notion that a person isn't saved until they speak in tongues. So is the notion that if a woman wears pants, it is a reflection of her lack of holiness or more often her lack of salvation all together.

A notable UPCI preacher once said when speaking of their doctrine, "Either we're right or we're really wrong."

Sadly, but firmly, I attest the UPCI is doctrinally wrong. Yet who am I? What does it matter that I say the UPCI is doctrinally wrong? Why is this important?

I am Jermyn Michael Davidson and I KNOW who I am. It matters to me.

I thank GOD for AFF.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

But doesn't that "in order that your sins may be forgiven" grammatically lines up with the command to repent?


The reason why THIS discussion is important follows.
At the heart of the UPCI's faulty theology is a works-based, legalistic salvation message that is not biblical.

So while the Apostles may have never sought to disect the role of baptism in one's salvation, the Apostle Paul would stand against the message that is preached by the UPCI. The spirit of the message is not biblical. Acts 2:38 is in the Bible for sure-- but not the way it is presented in Oneness circles and SURELY the Apostle Paul would stand against anyone who would believe in their heart that others are not saved because they were not baptized in the Name of Jesus.

When I speak of the "spirit" of the UPCI's message not being biblical, the last sentecnce in the paragraph above is an example of that erroneous spirit that permeates Oneness doctrine. So is the notion that a person isn't saved until they speak in tongues. So is the notion that if a woman wears pants, it is a reflection of her lack of holiness or more often her lack of salvation all together.

A notable UPCI preacher once said when speaking of their doctrine, "Either we're right or we're really wrong."

Sadly, but firmly, I attest the UPCI is doctrinally wrong. Yet who am I? What does it matter that I say the UPCI is doctrinally wrong? Why is this important?

I am Jermyn Michael Davidson and I KNOW who I am. It matters to me.

I thank GOD for AFF.

Jeremy, Jesus made a direct link to salvation and baptism in Mark 16:16. But baptism is NOT salvation. Baptism is death of self and a surrendering to the authority of the name of Jesus. Absolutely NOTHING supernatural happens in baptism. In baptism, we renounce the old man that we might put on the new. This is why it was normative for someone to receive the Spirit AFTER baptism (Cornelius being the exception).

As far as your first comment goes....

But doesn't that "in order that your sins may be forgiven" grammatically lines up with the command to repent?

Yeah there are some slick Greek "scholars" who will bend every rule in the book to try to come to that conclusion, but it can easily be refuted. I did something novel not long ago, I asked a citizen of Greece that very question. He had no connection to the church in any way. He assured me that Acts 2:38 (reading from the Greek Interlinear) is saying that both repentance and baptism are linked to the remission of sins in that verse.

[houston]

Originally Posted by Originalist

The word in the Greek is "in order that your sins may be forgiven". But that does not mean baptism washes away sins, or that your forgiven on the basis of baptism.

source?