We are officially a family without a church

[kclee4jc]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I am not going to judge the original poster of this thread since I know nothing of him nor his pastor. But I can tell you from a pastor's standpoint some folks won't allow you to pastor them. You can never do enough or spend enough time with them. You love them but they are so self absorbed it is useless. And yes after a time you just have to move on to those who want your help and allow these type of folks to do whatever they are going to do. And hope for the best. My experience they generall succeed in destroying their families and the majority of the time they either backslide or windup in some false church decieved. But in techo land today the computer becomes their pastor and church and they hang out with renegades who hate all that is true and holy. But they do find comfort from folks just like themselves.
Yes there are self absorbed pastors who only think of a paycheck like most saints I know. No one criticizes a saint for expected a good pay check or a raise or nice things only the preacher. You reckon some still have the Catholic mentality of the oath of poverty the priest takes? Think about it.

You hit it!

I have seen my pastor pour unbelievable amounts of precious time, prayers and tears into one soul only to see them trample all over his efforts. Then they get in a low place and reach out and he is there to help again. The only explanation I have for such an example is a genuine burden that can ONLY come from God.

In my opinion, humble, God-called pastors should be the richest folks on the earth...and i suppose in some sense they probably are. I would not begrudge my pastor of having ANY type of wealth or material blessing.

The only downfall of such blessings is that it can lead to pride. I do pray that God not give us more than what we can handle while maintaining a right spirit.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Originalist

I've felt the same way for years. This last pastor certainly was no mentor for me. Just don't miss a service , pay your tithes, and everything will be just fine.

Exactly. I know exactly what you mean.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I am not going to judge the original poster of this thread since I know nothing of him nor his pastor. But I can tell you from a pastor's standpoint some folks won't allow you to pastor them. You can never do enough or spend enough time with them. You love them but they are so self absorbed it is useless. And yes after a time you just have to move on to those who want your help and allow these type of folks to do whatever they are going to do. And hope for the best. My experience they generall succeed in destroying their families and the majority of the time they either backslide or windup in some false church decieved. But in techo land today the computer becomes their pastor and church and they hang out with renegades who hate all that is true and holy. But they do find comfort from folks just like themselves.
Yes there are self absorbed pastors who only think of a paycheck like most saints I know. No one criticizes a saint for expected a good pay check or a raise or nice things only the preacher. You reckon some still have the Catholic mentality of the oath of poverty the priest takes? Think about it.

I think that some pastors have spent time pouring themselves into people only to be disappointed when they backslide and then they become burnt out and put up a wall out of self defense. That's only human and understandable. But these types of pastors also need to understand that when they are burnt out and refuse to do anything but go through the motions and won't let people past a certain point with them emotionally that it has an effect. And this effect is not really the saddest point.

The saddest point is when these pastors refuse to admit they are falling short because they have been hurt and are not giving what they should to their congregants and then they blame the congregants as unwilling to give all for the kingdom's sake (or they would not be feeling the way they do) and the congregants believe them. That is the saddest point of all, when they are very good, giving, loving people who feel unloved, unappreciated and taken for granted but they blame themselves because their own pastor blames them. It usually takes years and years to begin to see the truth.

The truth is that their pastor is not a bad person, necessarily, but a hurt one and has a wall up. It becomes abusive when that pastor blames others for their own shortcomings, refusing to admit any fault in the situation. This type of pastor loves congregants who are satisfied with the status quo, don't need anything, don't ask questions and pay tithes. Those who take more energy are often sidelined and marginalized as "troublemakers" when the pastor has bundled these people into the same category as the people they were hurt by. But it is not fair to blame people who ask questions and need a little help for the hurt the pastor has already experienced.

The only solution for the pastor in this situation is to look to heal his own hurt. That isn't easy but is totally necessary.

The only solution for a congregant in this situation is to realize he cannot control someone else and he is not at fault, forgive the shortcomings of his present pastor and go somewhere else if he cannot live under those circumstances.

[MarcBee]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

...
Yes there are self absorbed pastors who only think of a paycheck like most saints I know..

Fascinating to me how you used the word "most," as in "most saints I know" (only think of a paycheck.) This is very telling concerning the dichotomy of "the ministry" vs. "the saints." Fascinating, but of course you should consider the source, here.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by MarcBee

Fascinating to me how you used the word "most," as in "most saints I know" (only think of a paycheck.) This is very telling concerning the dichotomy of "the ministry" vs. "the saints." Fascinating, but of course you should consider the source, here.

My reply is in sarcassism to meet the onslaught of attacks made on the ministry here. In truth MOST saints are hardworking devoted people who love God-the church-the ministry. AND most saints I know do like to recieve good pay checks and nice things and NOTHING wrong in that. So why should the preacher be any different? Would you work if you knew you wasn't getting paid? Would you change jobs for better pay? See no sin in that. But any preacher that is blessed financially on this forum is reduced to a money hungry creep who loves power and money. But you folks don't handle it too well when I hand it back to you.
No one ever fusses about how much the preacher makes when he is paying the bills and keeping the doors open only when his labor has paid off and he can live a little better then comes the insults. I rejoice when a saint gets a raise or a bonus. Moves into a nicer house or buys a nicer auto-takes a nice vacation. Why should a saint complain when the saem happens to his pastor? SELAH!

[n david]

Originally Posted by ILG

I wanted a pastor/mentor all that time. But could I actually find someone to make that investment?

Originally Posted by Originalist

This last pastor certainly was no mentor for me.

This isn't directed at either of you. You both mentioned Pastors as mentors and I have a question about that.

Is it really the responsibility, duty, or role of a Pastor to be a mentor? And what exactly is the role of a Pastor? Other than being the punching bag or person we blame if things don't work out the way we think they should.

IMO, it'd be good for a Pastor to either directly mentor others, or have a board of church elders who can do this, but it's not required as part of their role or duty.

[Real Realism]

I don't think the majority of folks on here would criticize a pastor earning a regular salary with appropriate amount of time off (vacation) as well as regular, appropriate increases in salary.

The issue comes with the perceived lack of commitment on the part of some who choose that profession to actually pastor in a Biblical fashion. On the one hand, you have pastors who lord over their congregations. On the other hand, you have pastors who open the doors of the church, preach their due, and are emotionally distant and don't have a true attitude of leadership and mentorship to those in their congregations.

I've experienced both. I've also experienced the rare gem of a pastor who - even looking back now - it surprises me how he and his wife find time to make real connections and relationships with people. When we go back to visit that area, they are still so happy to see us and make time out for us. I wish circumstances were different and we could move back, but we can't at the moment.

It's not about receiving money for a job. It's about going through the motions and expecting the pay check. I have someone who provides me a salary based on my performance. And while I don't think that pastors should be on a performance plan, necessarily, is it fair for them to just sit back and collect the cash when they're not doing much, if anything, to grow their church physically and spiritually?

[navygoat1998]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

My reply is in sarcassism to meet the onslaught of attacks made on the ministry here. In truth MOST saints are hardworking devoted people who love God-the church-the ministry. AND most saints I know do like to recieve good pay checks and nice things and NOTHING wrong in that. So why should the preacher be any different? Would you work if you knew you wasn't getting paid? Would you change jobs for better pay? See no sin in that. But any preacher that is blessed financially on this forum is reduced to a money hungry creep who loves power and money. But you folks don't handle it too well when I hand it back to you.
No one ever fusses about how much the preacher makes when he is paying the bills and keeping the doors open only when his labor has paid off and he can live a little better then comes the insults. I rejoice when a saint gets a raise or a bonus. Moves into a nicer house or buys a nicer auto-takes a nice vacation. Why should a saint complain when the saem happens to his pastor? SELAH!

I am glad that my pastor and his family are blessed financially and I firmly believe that he is worthy of his wages he labors among us. It is my constant prayer that God would increase my pastors faith, wisdom and finances.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Real Realism

I don't think the majority of folks on here would criticize a pastor earning a regular salary with appropriate amount of time off (vacation) as well as regular, appropriate increases in salary.

The issue comes with the perceived lack of commitment on the part of some who choose that profession to actually pastor in a Biblical fashion. On the one hand, you have pastors who lord over their congregations. On the other hand, you have pastors who open the doors of the church, preach their due, and are emotionally distant and don't have a true attitude of leadership and mentorship to those in their congregations.

I've experienced both. I've also experienced the rare gem of a pastor who - even looking back now - it surprises me how he and his wife find time to make real connections and relationships with people. When we go back to visit that area, they are still so happy to see us and make time out for us. I wish circumstances were different and we could move back, but we can't at the moment.

It's not about receiving money for a job. It's about going through the motions and expecting the pay check. I have someone who provides me a salary based on my performance. And while I don't think that pastors should be on a performance plan, necessarily, is it fair for them to just sit back and collect the cash when they're not doing much, if anything, to grow their church physically and spiritually?

Sadly I agree. Many pastors lack the burden or appitude. Some of this is because many times regardless what they do they are not appreciated thus they become cynical and distant. Others are just aloof and arogant and will pay for it in time. But a true shepherd has a servant's heart they love the flock they don't have to take time the saints are their time. I never want to forget what I am called to do. The flock does not belong to me it belongs to Him He has placed them under my care. So in reality I am like a glorified spiritual babysitter and I had better treat His kids right or He will fire me or discipline me.
Now to clarify my statements about saints who do not appreciate their pastors has zero to do with me. I am humbled and blessed beyond messure by the wonderful undeserving treatment I recieve from the precious saints I am endeavoring to pastor. They deserve better but unfortunely for them ans fortunatelly for me they are stuck with me. I marvel that such a great church can be pastored by such a poor pastor. The mystery of mysteries. But I ain't complaining.

[ILG]

I think pastors should make a salary that is average for the people around him. Nothing wrong with that. And if he manages it well, hopefully he will have something to show for it. Pastors should make at least a living wage but not too much either, like those who have air-conditioned dog houses. Their wage should not be a reproach to the church.

That isn't the issue here. The issue is burnt out pastors who blame new saints for their weariness and hurt when it stems from by-gone saints and perhaps the pastors not knowing how to have good boundaries that kept them from getting so hurt in the first place. Now, they have a wall instead of decent boundaries.