An Apology

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by seekerman

The reason I'm asking is that you don't see this kind of behavior in most Christian sects. There is something in the message, in the 'apostolic' theology which lends itself to people doing this. I was just curious why you came to the conclusion that God would be pleased with allowing your child to suffer if your pastor didn't teach that particular docrine.

I was soundly criticized by some on here for bringing up the practice of some 'apostolics' to do this very thing, even to the point of the death of their child. What is being preached that would convince a person that such behavior is pleasing to God? Something is in that culture, in that theology, which would lend itself to practicing theology which had tragic consequences.

This is what epley didn't want to discuss, to answer.

Actually it's NOT the Apostolic message. Not all Apostolics do this

And it's NOT limited to Apostolics.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by seekerman

The reason I'm asking is that you don't see this kind of behavior in most Christian sects. There is something in the message, in the 'apostolic' theology which lends itself to people doing this. I was just curious why you came to the conclusion that God would be pleased with allowing your child to suffer if your pastor didn't teach that particular docrine.

I was soundly criticized by some on here for bringing up the practice of some 'apostolics' to do this very thing, even to the point of the death of their child. What is being preached that would convince a person that such behavior is pleasing to God? Something is in that culture, in that theology, which would lend itself to practicing theology which had tragic consequences.

This is what epley didn't want to discuss, to answer.

What is preached is that people should trust in God for everything, and not depend on themselves or others. When that is extrapolated illogically, it leads some people to the conclusion that they should shun reasonable forms of medicine and technology. It also reflects a lack of trust in modern medicine, because many people who believe in trusting God for healing believe it's fine to treat illness with supplements, nutrition or herbs. There's one strand of people who believe that pharmaceuticals are a form of "witchcraft" and alter the brain chemistry which allows evil spirits better access. (something like that--I can't recall the details of that line of thought) To be blunt, you're less likely to find that kind of thinking among people who are educated, and btw, a quick Google search will turn up quite a few cases of people from other denominations who have let their children suffer or even die in the name of faith. It isn't exclusive to Apostolic culture.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Seekerman, you are confusing respecting one's religious convictions--even when they are disagreeable or even repugnant--with agreeing with them or endorsing them.

I don't respect any religious conviction which results in the suffering, and sometimes death, of an infant and child. I have zero tolerance for such evil theology. Why on earth would you respect religious convictions which abuse children, the innocent?

The pastors who preach or allow such behavior are evil.

The reason it is difficult to hate someone or treat them badly because of religious beliefs is because their belief is intertwined with sincere love for God. People who are willing to put their own lives or their children's lives in danger in order to express their faith are people who believe what they believe to the core. It may be misguided, but it can't be ripped out of them.

I'm not questioning the person's love for God. They somehow in twisted and convoluted reasoning believe that they're showing their love for God while their child suffers....and sometimes dies. This isn't Godly love even though they think it is. It's completely perverted love which they have heard from various sermons and teachings within the particular sect of which they're a part. This perversion is part of a cult, a cult which teaches that they're the real Christians and their leadership isn't to be questioned. If there is a hell, I believe that those preachers who are responsible for such theology will have a special place in the deepest and hottest part of it.

I pity the parents who are ignorant and unlearned and follow such religious swill.

No, I do NOT believe that God is pleased with a person allowing their child to suffer, but at the same time, I understand their sincere ignorance.

I do too. I grew up watching such 'apostolic' cults.

Not in the sense that I am commiserating, but from the angle of knowing that people do bad and stupid things for noble reasons. My own father nearly let me die out of the same misguided notion when I was 2. My grandfather finally overrode him and took me to the hospital. Ironically, two days later, our pastor came in and prayed for me and I was completely healed and released from the hospital that same afternoon. My Dad never spoke against doctors again--and I can assure you that he loved me very much. He did, however, feel that he was put in the position of having to choose between faith in God and his child, and his convictions made him make a choice that I feel was sincerely ignorant. He wasn't bad or evil; he was just a fallible human being

Of course. Your dad heard teaching from the pulpit which convinced him that certain behavor would be pleasing to God. I know there is an honest heart that does this. It's not about those who do that, sometimes to the point of death of their child, it's about the perverted teaching, the perverted preaches who instill such a mindset and environment in the people. It's tragic.

I was first healed when I was 10 years old. So I too know God heals, that's not the issue. The issue is allowing a child to suffer, and sometimes die, because of perverted preaching from the pulpit.

What is the point of haranguing people for things they feel so deeply in their heart, they can never in good conscience make a different choice? Their ignorance can make you sad, or even angry, but I think it's still easy to see where it comes from.

The perverted preaching isn't from God. So yes, it's easy to see where it comes from.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Actually it's NOT the Apostolic message. Not all Apostolics do this

And it's NOT limited to Apostolics.

I agree that it's not a true Apostolic message and the behavior isn't limited to 'apostolics'. There are various cults who do such things, not just the 'apostolic' sects which are cults.

Do you think those pastors who allow such behavior in their churches are led of God. That's the ultimate question epley was avoiding.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by seekerman

I agree that it's not a true Apostolic message and the behavior isn't limited to 'apostolics'. There are various cults who do such things, not just the 'apostolic' sects which are cults.

Do you think those pastors who allow such behavior in their churches are led of God. That's the ultimate question epley was avoiding.

You're missing the points here.

It's NOT "Apostolic" sects that do it. It's SOME Apostolic churches within the sect "Apostolic".

You are trying to make this synonymous with being Apostolic

I have no interest in discussing this as long as you try to make it about another forum member (ie, making it about Bro Epley)

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by seekerman

I don't respect any religious conviction which results in the suffering, and sometimes death, of an infant and child. I have zero tolerance for such evil theology. Why on earth would you respect religious convictions which abuse children, the innocent?

The pastors who preach or allow such behavior are evil.



I'm not questioning the person's love for God. They somehow in twisted and convoluted reasoning believe that they're showing their love for God while their child suffers....and sometimes dies. This isn't Godly love even though they think it is. It's completely perverted love which they have heard from various sermons and teachings within the particular sect of which they're a part. This perversion is part of a cult, a cult which teaches that they're the real Christians and their leadership isn't to be questioned. If there is a hell, I believe that those preachers who are responsible for such theology will have a special place in the deepest and hottest part of it.

I pity the parents who are ignorant and unlearned and follow such religious swill.



I do too. I grew up watching such 'apostolic' cults.



Of course. Your dad heard teaching from the pulpit which convinced him that certain behavor would be pleasing to God. I know there is an honest heart that does this. It's not about those who do that, sometimes to the point of death of their child, it's about the perverted teaching, the perverted preaches who instill such a mindset and environment in the people. It's tragic.

I was first healed when I was 10 years old. So I too know God heals, that's not the issue. The issue is allowing a child to suffer, and sometimes die, because of perverted preaching from the pulpit.



The perverted preaching isn't from God. So yes, it's easy to see where it comes from.

My Dad was a preacher, evangelist and pastor, and for a short time HE preached that you should trust in God for healing. Thankfully, he was malleable enough that God could change his mind, but that doesn't happen for everyone.

Why are you marking a difference between the saint who truly believes in this and the preacher who truly believes it? Do you believe preachers who believe in trusting in God for healing have some evil motive behind their teaching? I can't even think of a motive that would support that, other than their true belief that it's what God wants from them.

You are still confusing "respect" with "endorsement" or even "acceptance." I respect it ONLY in the sense that I know their motives are pure and their hearts are sincere. I don't respect it in the sense that I would stand by and do nothing while someone allowed their child to die. I would pick up the phone and call DHS.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

You're missing the points here.

It's NOT "Apostolic" sects that do it. It's SOME Apostolic churches within the sect "Apostolic".

You are trying to make this synonymous with being Apostolic

I have no interest in discussing this as long as you try to make it about another forum member (ie, making it about Bro Epley)

No, I'm not trying to make it synonymous with 'apostolic'. I'm stating the fact that the behavior occurs and it usually occurs in those cult-like sects who label themselves 'apostolic'.

You stated earlier that epley answered my questions to him so you're bringing him into the fray also. I responded to you showing that epley had not addressed the question of some of those with whom he fellowships practicing the behavior of allowing their infants and children who are ill to suffer, and sometimes die.

Apparently epley is outta here so I guess he believes he's home free on answering the question. The thing is, that behavior is ungodly and evil, not from God but from Satan and should be quickly and openly condemned when someone sees such behavior and teaching. Epley chose to evade instead of simply condemning it.

If he comes back at some point in the future and I'm still here, I'll ask him again.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

My Dad was a preacher, evangelist and pastor, and for a short time HE preached that you should trust in God for healing. Thankfully, he was malleable enough that God could change his mind, but that doesn't happen for everyone.

Yes, thank God for that.

Why are you marking a difference between the saint who truly believes in this and the preacher who truly believes it? Do you believe preachers who believe in trusting in God for healing have some evil motive behind their teaching? I can't even think of a motive that would support that, other than their true belief that it's what God wants from them.

That's the issue. WHY would anyone believe that God is pleased with that? What have they heard which would convince them that's from God?

I do think it's an evil spirit that controls the person who practices such things.

You are still confusing "respect" with "endorsement" or even "acceptance." I respect it ONLY in the sense that I know their motives are pure and their hearts are sincere. I don't respect it in the sense that I would stand by and do nothing while someone allowed their child to die. I would pick up the phone and call DHS.

I don't respect Islamic suicide bombers. They're brave, they're sincere and they're completely convinced in their heart that they're doing what is pleasing to God. Killing the opposing Islamic sect's men, women and children shows just how committed to God they are. They're following and obeying an evil spirit.

Would you respect them?

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by seekerman

No, I'm not trying to make it synonymous with 'apostolic'. I'm stating the fact that the behavior occurs and it usually occurs in those cult-like sects who label themselves 'apostolic'.

You stated earlier that epley answered my questions to him so you're bringing him into the fray also. I responded to you showing that epley had not addressed the question of some of those with whom he fellowships practicing the behavior of allowing their infants and children who are ill to suffer, and sometimes die.

Apparently epley is outta here so I guess he believes he's home free on answering the question. The thing is, that behavior is ungodly and evil, not from God but from Satan and should be quickly and openly condemned when someone sees such behavior and teaching. Epley chose to evade instead of simply condemning it.

If he comes back at some point in the future and I'm still here, I'll ask him again.

Seekerman,

Can you cite any actual cases of anyone in Bro. Epley's fellowship who have allowed their children to die? I know of adults who have chosen not to go to the hospital (and died), but I don't know of any Apostolics who have allowed their children to die out of faith. In one particular case of a woman who died after childbirth, if it had been my husband, he would have called an ambulance in defiance of my wishes--but still, she was a grown woman.

The most recent two cases that can be found in Google are both stories involving non-Apostolics.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Yes, thank God for that.



That's the issue. WHY would anyone believe that God is pleased with that? What have they heard which would convince them that's from God?

I do think it's an evil spirit that controls the person who practices such things.



I don't respect Islamic suicide bombers. They're brave, they're sincere and they're completely convinced in their heart that they're doing what is pleasing to God. Killing the opposing Islamic sect's men, women and children shows just how committed to God they are. They're following and obeying an evil spirit.

Would you respect them?

Maybe I need to come up with another word besides respect, but essentially...I do UNDERSTAND the simple sincerity in a person who takes something at face value, and I do empathize with believing something so strongly you're willing to sacrifice life for it.

What do you think of the NT Christians who refused to renounce Christ and their children were put to death in front of them?