Sinful housework

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Luke

Why not just get rid of the fleshly carnal nature and walk free of sin not free from temptation but free from the desire and pull of sin

Please explain the difference between 'temptation' on the one hand, and 'the desire and pull of sin' on the other hand. It seems as if they are the same thing, for how can a temptation be a temption if it is not a 'desire and pull of sin'? IE if there is no desire (lust), there cannot be a temptation????

'But every man when he is tempted, is drawn away by his own lust (desire) and enticed (pulled)'...????


Just trying to clarify things here a bit.

[Aquila]

If temptation is "tempting" in any degree... you still have sin in you. Sin is more than an action contrary to the nature of God. Sin is part of the fallen nature. You will battle this fallen nature throughout your entire life. This battle will only cease when you've experienced glorification... being raised or transformed. The old nature will be changed and the new nature will not have the principle of sin functioning in it, because it will not be fallen. Until then, we will struggle with sin. Some days will be days of great victory. Some days will be days wherein your carnality will arise and yes... you will sin. However, confession and repentance are available to the child of God, just as it is available to all. The problem arises when a child of God refuses to confess and repent. They are not instantly lost. Instead God deals with them as children and brings chastisement and corrective judgments by allowing them to reap the consequences of their actions. Only after one refuses to receive God's correction can one be cut off.

Sanctification is the progression into "Christlikeness" and only ends in perfection upon glorification. Until then we strive against the flesh, striving to be filled with Christ and to emulate Him in our lives. Each of us do this to varying degrees... and therefore there will be varying degrees of reward in Heaven.

I fear that those who teach Christian perfectionism can lose sight of these realities. The result can bring a heaping sense of failure and condemnation to those who are currently in need of greater sanctification and are having a hard time struggling against the carnal nature.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

If temptation is "tempting" in any degree... you still have sin in you.

Was Jesus tempted in all points like as we?

Also, you seem to be saying temptation itself is sinful. Thus, if you experience a temptation, you are already guilty...????

[Aquila]

Remember, the following are sinful behaviors rooted in flesh:

sexual immorality
impurity
sensuality
idolatry
sorcery
enmity
strife
jealousy
fits of anger
rivalries
dissensions
divisions
envy
drunkenness
orgies

..and things like these.

I've seen those who professed "perfection" be full of anger, strife, lust, dissention, and rivalries. Let's be real. I even heard a Christian professor of "perfection" chew his wife out rather harshly after church. He then realized that he made a mistake when she told him all the details and he apologized. So much for "perfection". The man sinned.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Was Jesus tempted in all points like as we?

Yes, Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh. His flesh had the same fallen impulses as found in anyone else. However, Christ never gave into those temptations and carried that flesh all the way to the cross. Crucifying it and it's lusts.

None of us can say that we've never sinned. We're already tainted. We've already blew the standard. If we never sinned again... none of us would be worthy of Heaven or to profess perfection.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I even heard a Christian professor of "perfection" chew his wife out rather harshly after church. He then realized that he made a mistake when she told him all the details and he apologized. So much for "perfection". The man sinned.

Was he in fact sinning when he rebuked his wife? Perfection, as I understand it, does not include perfect knowledge of all things (omniscience). If the facts were as he understood them to be, perhaps under those circumstances the rebuke would have been entirely justified. I do not see where perfection, as mentioned in Scripture, precludes an angry rebuke. Jesus 'chewed people out' several times, yet he was, of all people, without sin in any way.

[Aquila]

Temptation is the subconscious desire to please the flesh and it's sinful impulses. If sin didn't reside in us, in the nature of our fallen flesh, it would be as appealing as eating a bowl full of feces.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Yes, Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh. His flesh had the same fallen impulses as found in anyone else. However, Christ never gave into those temptations and carried that flesh all the way to the cross. Crucifying it and it's lusts.

But you just said that if there is any 'tempting' in a temptation, then sin is there, it is sinful. Now you are saying Christ was tempted like we are, yet he did not give in to those temptation. Seems like one standard for Christ, another for us. He is tempted, and has 'the same fallen impulses' we do. But, in us, it indicates sin, in him, merely temptation.

????

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Temptation is the subconscious desire to please the flesh and it's sinful impulses. If sin didn't reside in us, in the nature of our fallen flesh, it would be as appealing as eating a bowl full of feces.

So then Jesus had a sin nature, like we do?????

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Was he in fact sinning when he rebuked his wife? Perfection, as I understand it, does not include perfect knowledge of all things (omniscience). If the facts were as he understood them to be, perhaps under those circumstances the rebuke would have been entirely justified. I do not see where perfection, as mentioned in Scripture, precludes an angry rebuke. Jesus 'chewed people out' several times, yet he was, of all people, without sin in any way.

Jesus never chewed anyone out without knowing that it was justified. Perfection seeks the facts prior to rebuke... else one rebukes on false pretenses. Something rampant in our movement.