Sinful housework

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

IF ONE DESIRES TO BE PERFECT?

I did not know we had a choice in the matter?

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matt 5:48

Or:

12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God Col. 4:12

So it looks like its not optional from here!

My statement, "If one desires to be perfect.", wasn't meant to be an insult to anyone. It was merely me sharing my opinion of how to pursue spiritual perfection. Why are you retorting with such heat towards me bro???

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

There is a difference between SINLESS PERFECTION and the anointing one has to minister. Everyone of us are called to be without sin.

Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. 1 Cor. 15:30

Yet not all have the gifts of healing and miracles.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 1 Cor. 12:7-10

Given your tone in the previous post I'd like to ask... are you walking in sinless perfection???

Michael, you have to drop this bitterness.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The point is... the flesh is fallen and internally governed by the law of sin operating within it's nature. Therefore, while one may walk upright during a given day without committing sins of action... the very principle of sin is still at work in their members. They still have sin on account of nature. And this will only be changed when one is glorified in absolute sinless perfection. That is the perfection we strive to attain through keeping faith. Until then... they'll be subject to the desires of the flesh and have to keep on top of them. Given a weak moment be it anger, hurt, stress, physical desire, coveting, etc.... it can get the best of them. Thus... they are far from perfect in the sense that it is common used by Christian perfectionism. They can be perfect in their spiritual maturity wherein they increasingly grow in Christlikeness and instances of sin become less and less. Or if they sin... they turn to confession and repentance.

I know humble men in their 80's who continued to confess sin and turn towards the Lord in a repentant heart all the way up to their death bed. Now... that's honesty and integrity in an earthen vessel.

Well the Apostle of Christ gives us to understand that THE NORM for a Christian is that they HAVE crucified the flesh.

24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Galatians 5:24

If one is walking in the flesh Paul puts their salvation in doubt.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Please explain the difference between 'temptation' on the one hand, and 'the desire and pull of sin' on the other hand. It seems as if they are the same thing, for how can a temptation be a temption if it is not a 'desire and pull of sin'? IE if there is no desire (lust), there cannot be a temptation????

'But every man when he is tempted, is drawn away by his own lust (desire) and enticed (pulled)'...????


Just trying to clarify things here a bit.

What should the attitude of the Christian be toward sin?

Romans 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

Jude 1:23 and others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Hebrews 6: 18 that by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

In the first two scriptures we are called to have an attitude of hatred or abhorrance( 1.detest something: to disapprove of or reject something very strongly) (bing dictionary). In the third passage we see the attitude of running away from where we were to where we are going. In each of these passages we can easily see that the Christian's attitude should be one of repulsion from sin. When a man gets saved they are to have renounced sin and forsaken sin. Yet they still retain a sin/carnal nature and it is this enemy which is within that desires to sin and gratify fleshly lusts. At the point of sanctification the sin/carnal nature is removed and with it the desire to sin.

How can a sanctified man/woman be tempted to sin if they have no desire to sin? This seems to be a hard question in light of James 1:14 until two things are noticed

1. the definition of temptation:

1: to entice to do wrong by promise of pleasure or gain
2a obsolete : to make trial of : test b : to try presumptuously : provoke <tempt fate> c : to risk the dangers of
3a : to induce to do something b : to cause to be strongly inclined <was tempted to call it quits>
Webster's Dictionary

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/enticeFull Definition of ENTICE : to attract artfully or adroitly or by arousing hope or desire : tempt

To be tempted to sin is nothing more that have sin offered to you. This does not mean that you want to sin or that you desire to sin it just means to have it offered to you.

2. A correct understanding of the word "lust" as it used in the passage.

Strong's Number: 1939
Definition
desire, craving, longing, desire for what is forbidden, lust
King James Word Usage - Total: 38
lust 31, concupiscence 3, desire 3, lust after 1

The word used here can be used in either a good sense or an evil sense. In Luke 22:15 Jesus uses this word to describe His desire too eat the passover with the disciples. In Phil 1:23 Paul uses the same word to express his desire to be with Christ. In 1Thess 2:17 Paul again uses the same word to show his desire to see the bretheren face to face. Therefore it can be seen that the word lust/desire can be used in conection to things that are not wrong. In the case of the james 1 the word used can be seen to mean a lawful desire that satan attempts to attract (see definiton of entice above). An example of this can be seen in that God gave us the desire to eat but not to be gluttons, God gave us the desire (and command) to reproduce but not to fornicate or to commit adultery, God gave men and women the desire to look nice and presentable but not the desire to vainity, pride or arrogance. God gave mankind the appreciation of fine things such as art but tnot the desire to steal it. The desire that the devil attempts to entice in temptation may very well be perfectly fine and godly in and of itself but when it lends itself to evil it becomes sin.

All temptation is in a saint is simply a good desire being offered the chance to be gratified in a sinful way, but this in no way demands the desire to sin, just the desire for what is God sanctioned and the opportunity to misuse it.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Luke

What should the attitude of the Christian be toward sin?

Romans 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

Jude 1:23 and others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Hebrews 6: 18 that by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

In the first two scriptures we are called to have an attitude of hatred or abhorrance( 1.detest something: to disapprove of or reject something very strongly) (bing dictionary). In the third passage we see the attitude of running away from where we were to where we are going. In each of these passages we can easily see that the Christian's attitude should be one of repulsion from sin. When a man gets saved they are to have renounced sin and forsaken sin. Yet they still retain a sin/carnal nature and it is this enemy which is within that desires to sin and gratify fleshly lusts. At the point of sanctification the sin/carnal nature is removed and with it the desire to sin.

How can a sanctified man/woman be tempted to sin if they have no desire to sin? This seems to be a hard question in light of James 1:14 until two things are noticed

1. the definition of temptation:

1: to entice to do wrong by promise of pleasure or gain
2a obsolete : to make trial of : test b : to try presumptuously : provoke <tempt fate> c : to risk the dangers of
3a : to induce to do something b : to cause to be strongly inclined <was tempted to call it quits>
Webster's Dictionary

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/enticeFull Definition of ENTICE : to attract artfully or adroitly or by arousing hope or desire : tempt

To be tempted to sin is nothing more that have sin offered to you. This does not mean that you want to sin or that you desire to sin it just means to have it offered to you.

2. A correct understanding of the word "lust" as it used in the passage.

Strong's Number: 1939
Definition
desire, craving, longing, desire for what is forbidden, lust
King James Word Usage - Total: 38
lust 31, concupiscence 3, desire 3, lust after 1

The word used here can be used in either a good sense or an evil sense. In Luke 22:15 Jesus uses this word to describe His desire too eat the passover with the disciples. In Phil 1:23 Paul uses the same word to express his desire to be with Christ. In 1Thess 2:17 Paul again uses the same word to show his desire to see the bretheren face to face. Therefore it can be seen that the word lust/desire can be used in conection to things that are not wrong. In the case of the james 1 the word used can be seen to mean a lawful desire that satan attempts to attract (see definiton of entice above). An example of this can be seen in that God gave us the desire to eat but not to be gluttons, God gave us the desire (and command) to reproduce but not to fornicate or to commit adultery, God gave men and women the desire to look nice and presentable but not the desire to vainity, pride or arrogance. God gave mankind the appreciation of fine things such as art but tnot the desire to steal it. The desire that the devil attempts to entice in temptation may very well be perfectly fine and godly in and of itself but when it lends itself to evil it becomes sin.

All temptation is in a saint is simply a good desire being offered the chance to be gratified in a sinful way, but this in no way demands the desire to sin, just the desire for what is God sanctioned and the opportunity to misuse it.

Let's say a person is in a state where they have no appetite. They do not desire to eat. Someone offers them a plate of pasta. They look at it, smell the aroma, and feel nauseous. Is that how temptation occurs to one who is sanctified? The mere offer of sin, with no corresponding 'desire'?

And what about Eve... she was offered the forbidden fruit, and saw it was 'desireable to make one wise'. That is temptation for all non-sanctified persons, Christians and unbelievers alike?

As for James, does he not say 'every man'? Thus, every man (sanctified or not) when he is tempted is drawn away by his own LUST (desire) and enticed... thus there is a desire of some sort present which is whistling to his mind...'hey, lookey here, turn aside and come unto me..' (like the whorish woman in Proverbs who's steps lead down to hades...)???

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Given your tone in the previous post I'd like to ask... are you walking in sinless perfection???

Michael, you have to drop this bitterness.

What bitterness? Im responding to what you wrote.

[KeptByTheWord]

Perhaps before we define perfection any more, we should look at the seven churches in the book of Revelation. They were 7 churches who fully believed they were doing all they should be doing for the Lord. However, the Lord had a rebuke for EACH one of them. None of them escaped.

It would do us all well to consider that no matter how perfect we may try to be, how long and hard we labor to eradicate sin from our lives, when He looks into the deep dark caverns of our hearts and lives, what does He find?

It would do us all well to spend time allowing God's Spirit to illuminate the things in our lives that need removed. They may not necessarily be labeled as "sin" but they could be hang-ups in our walk with Him. And the things I need to deal with in my own heart, will be different than the things in your life.

Let's be practical here. I believe each day we should strive for perfection, and seek to cast things out of our lives that the Spirit shows us are not pleasing to the Lord. We should not forget that the Lord knows us far better than we know ourselves. We may think we are not capable of "such and such a sin", but our flesh can catch us off guard at any moment, and attack us with a temptation or desire that we thought we had overcome.

Without the SPIRIT of the Lord being an active part of our lives, we will not be able to detect the things within our heart that are not pleasing to him.

1 John 2:27-28 "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. And now little children, abide in Him, that when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming."

[MarieA27]

KbTW actually, I don't remember in Revelation, that it said that all the churches were imperfect. I remember that the Philadelphia church was highly praised. ..

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Perhaps before we define perfection any more, we should look at the seven churches in the book of Revelation. They were 7 churches who fully believed they were doing all they should be doing for the Lord. However, the Lord had a rebuke for EACH one of them. None of them escaped.

It would do us all well to consider that no matter how perfect we may try to be, how long and hard we labor to eradicate sin from our lives, when He looks into the deep dark caverns of our hearts and lives, what does He find?

It would do us all well to spend time allowing God's Spirit to illuminate the things in our lives that need removed. They may not necessarily be labeled as "sin" but they could be hang-ups in our walk with Him. And the things I need to deal with in my own heart, will be different than the things in your life.

Let's be practical here. I believe each day we should strive for perfection, and seek to cast things out of our lives that the Spirit shows us are not pleasing to the Lord. We should not forget that the Lord knows us far better than we know ourselves. We may think we are not capable of "such and such a sin", but our flesh can catch us off guard at any moment, and attack us with a temptation or desire that we thought we had overcome.

Without the SPIRIT of the Lord being an active part of our lives, we will not be able to detect the things within our heart that are not pleasing to him.

1 John 2:27-28 "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. And now little children, abide in Him, that when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming."

The Church at Smyrna.

8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; 9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. 10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. Rev. 2:8-11

No rebuke just encouragement!

Philadelphia:

7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Rev. 3:7-13

No rebuke just praise!

All the rest are found wanting.

I do wish to show the exact problem with the Sardis Church. It is right on topic.

1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. 6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Rev. 3:1-6

Their Church is reproved by Christ. Why?

THEIR WORKS WERE NOT PERFECT!

This is why the issue is so important. At LEAST these people knew their works were supposed to be perfect. The Churches nowadays don't have a clue, for the most part. They teach no such thing!

If these saints of God were in danger of being blotted out of the book of life (verse 5) how much more those of today who have been taught they CANNOT EVEN BE MADE PERFECT?

KBTW, I believe you understand my use of caps and bold is not meant to insult anyone as Aquila has charged. It is simply to EMPHASIZE and make the point as strong as I know how.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by MarieA27

KbTW actually, I don't remember in Revelation, that it said that all the churches were imperfect. I remember that the Philadelphia church was highly praised. ..

Thanks for that, you are so right. Indeed as MTD points out, there were two who were praised. I guess we stand to learn a lesson from the ones who were praised, as to the ones who weren't.

I love this ongoing discussion, I believe it helps us all understand where we need to be if the Lord were to look at us, and critique us, even as the Lord spoke to the seven churches. Will we be praised, or found wanting?

It is interesting to note that the church in Smyrna was undergoing persecution, and the church of Philadelphia they were also undergoing persecution of some kind with the mention of "a little strength" and "thou has kept my word, and not denied my name."

I wonder if the persecution had something to do with the praise that the Lord had for them.