No. You're in error in assuming every prayer prayed a the prayer of faith. There are plenty of prayers prayed which are misguided and unbelief prayers. Folks just don't want to admit it many times.
No, I'm not assuming that, and fully agree some prayers must obviously be perfunctory and DOA, rather than offered in faith. But the bible DOES SAY, "And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up." (James 5:15)
The bible DOES NOT say, "But use common sense when faith alone doesn't work after a while." Of course, we could probably derive a Common Sense doctrine from the bible, just like we derive all kinds of doctrines that aren't explicitly there, but not explicitly not there, either. The above prescription (James 5:14-15) is explicitly there, with no contravening instruction I am aware of. (And no, neither is the verse concerned with the physical, medicinal healing properties of oil, as someone else suggested.)
The history of biblical faith is consistent with ignoring common sense and going with what your God says, even to the point of willingness to kill and burn your own child (Abraham.)
Fortunately, clearer-thinking people DO take their health problems to modern science instead, even if they also are simultaneously placating their faith by imagining prayer is what really does the work.
Seekerman - when are you going to tell us where we can see these alleged mass graves? Also, who are these ministers who allegedly believe it's better for kids to die than to seek medical attention.
You say Epley and others support this doctrine because of not speaking out against it; however, you also support it by not publicly stating where the graves are and who the ministers are.
Again, where are these mass graves and who are these ministers? No more avoiding or sidestepping the question. I'm calling this accusation a hot, steamy pile of lies unless you name the locations and ministers involved. Whether it's by PM or here on the thread, it's time to back up your claims by putting locations and names to them.
I haven't said that everyone that calls themselves 'apostolic' believes, practices or teaches that. You're not reading my post. One more time, here is is again.
Within oneness pentecostalism, those who believe, practice and teach that will usually label themselves as 'apostolic'. While you may, or may not, consider them as 'apostolic', they consider themselves 'apostolic'.
Uh, seekerman, in case you didn't notice, the vast majority of 'oneness pentecostal' people label themselves 'apostolic'. So *if* there is a Oneness Penetecostal who believes children ought to suffer and die to please God by refusing medical treatment, it makes sense they would self identify as 'apostolic'. Not because of their views on doctors, but because they were Oneness Pentecostal.
Thus, there is no connection between the label 'apostolic' and anyone's beliefs concerning children and doctors/medical care. As Prax pointed out, most of the people who against children getting medical care (!!!) are not Oneness Pentecostal anyway.
Due to career moves in my family growing up, as well as my own, I have attended six churches in my lifetime. All claiming to be "Apostolic." Not a single church has espoused this belief. We may have had a few kooks in the church who themselves might have leaned in a crazy direction like this, but it was not condoned, nor did they stick around long.
Seekerman - when are you going to tell us where we can see these alleged mass graves?
Where have I said anything about "mass graves"? Are you aware that your exaggeration is the same as lying?
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Also, who are these ministers who allegedly believe it's better for kids to die than to seek medical attention.
I've said several times now that I'm not going to give names. And I've never said they believe it's 'better', I'm saying that it's acceptable to them.
If epley comes back and actually dialogs about those with whom he fellowships who practices such theology, if any, maybe he could name names. I doubt he'll be back for a while though. Too much sin and evil on this forum now for the self righteous.
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You say Epley and others support this doctrine because of not speaking out against it; however, you also support it by not publicly stating where the graves are and who the ministers are.
No, I publicly denounce it and the people who preach such a perverted doctrine. I don't fellowship with them. I don't interact with them. By choice.
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Again, where are these mass graves
And again, where have I said there are mass graves?
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and who are these ministers?
And again, I'm not going to name names. I will point out that every minister I know who pastors a church which practice such twisted theology self-label themselves as 'apostolic'.
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No more avoiding or sidestepping the question.
No more ignoring the fact that there are those self-labeled 'apostolics' who practice such sewerage theology.
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I'm calling this accusation a hot, steamy pile of lies unless you name the locations and ministers involved. Whether it's by PM or here on the thread, it's time to back up your claims by putting locations and names to them.
I don't care what you call the truth, it's up to you how to handle it. If you don't believe it, fine. But it sure would have been interesting if epley had stayed around just a bit longer to actually answer if he fellowshipped with churches where children suffered, and sometimes died, for lack of medical attention. I'm guessing he could name more names than I. But I believe we could name some of the same names.
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