Question About Submission

[renee819]

Esaias wrote,

I think the real issue here though is not standards, but submission. Women today (in America, certainly) have a hard time submitting to their husbands. And those husbands have a hard time submitting to Christ, as well.

Godly authority is something not really preached or taught these days, ESPECIALLY in regards to the family structure. Men have abandoned their authority by leaps and bounds, and now we reap the consequences - chaos in the home (and by extension, in the church and society at large).

but then again, I am one of those evil 'patriarchal homeschooling anti-vaccine home church' types, so take it for what's it's worth to ya

Easias, it is both. Should she submit to false standards? And, I believe that if the men were submitted to God, instead of submitted to peer pressure, they would see that the standards are false. And if men were submitted to God, they would teach what true holiness is and also godly authority.
What wife would rebel against a husband, that loved his wife as his own body?

[Sasha]

Originally Posted by Mrsnt

Even if you're not trying to judge a person by how they look, it's almost impossible not to when you're taught, for example, that a woman must wear only skirts. So if I saw a woman in pants, I subconsciously judged that that woman must not be saved, or must not be truly in love with Jesus, or else surely she would get the "revelation" that I had.

Ya know? Maybe yall don't have that same problem...

I am very honest, and let me tell you, I still do that.

*sees a woman with her hair in a bun...must be Apostolic...can't see but looks like she's wearing a...NOPE, it's pants, NOT saved, besides, I should have known by that necklace...ok, now I'm feeling stupid for looking*

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Sasha

I am very honest, and let me tell you, I still do that.

*sees a woman with her hair in a bun...must be Apostolic...can't see but looks like she's wearing a...NOPE, it's pants, NOT saved, besides, I should have known by that necklace...ok, now I'm feeling stupid for looking*

Girl... you nailed it! It is a trained mentality that is really hard to let go of, especially after it has been indoctrinated in you for 35+ years!

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by renee819

Esaias wrote,


Easias, it is both. Should she submit to false standards? And, I believe that if the men were submitted to God, instead of submitted to peer pressure, they would see that the standards are false. And if men were submitted to God, they would teach what true holiness is and also godly authority.

What wife would rebel against a husband, that loved his wife as his own body?

Yes, totally agreed.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sasha

I am very honest, and let me tell you, I still do that.

*sees a woman with her hair in a bun...must be Apostolic...can't see but looks like she's wearing a...NOPE, it's pants, NOT saved, besides, I should have known by that necklace...ok, now I'm feeling stupid for looking*

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Girl... you nailed it! It is a trained mentality that is really hard to let go of, especially after it has been indoctrinated in you for 35+ years!

Hmmm. I don't have that problem. When see a woman that looks "Apostolic" I notice, but when I see a woman that does not look "Apostolic", my inclination is not "She is not saved"..

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Hmmm. I don't have that problem. When see a woman that looks "Apostolic" I notice, but when I see a woman that does not look "Apostolic", my inclination is not "She is not saved"..

Umm... its more like when you see someone that almost looks the part of the Pentecostal, but then, something is not quite right, such as a necklace, or makeup, or earrings... and then you think, well, she's not Pentecostal then. It is just that automated mindset that you deal with after being in that group for so long. You automatically know the checklist to look for to see if they are "matching up" to the clothesline, and then when something doesn't fit the classic list, then you know that. That's all. I don't think about the "not saved part" that you mentioned.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Hmmm. I don't have that problem. When see a woman that looks "Apostolic" I notice, but when I see a woman that does not look "Apostolic", my inclination is not "She is not saved"..

Umm... its more like when you see someone that almost looks the part of the Pentecostal, but then, something is not quite right, such as a necklace, or makeup, or earrings... and then you think, well, she's not Pentecostal then. It is just that automated mindset that you deal with after being in that group for so long. You automatically know the checklist to look for to see if they are "matching up" to the clothesline, and then when something doesn't fit the classic list, then you know that. That's all. I don't think about the "not saved part" that you mentioned.

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by renee819

Esaias wrote,


Easias, it is both. Should she submit to false standards? And, I believe that if the men were submitted to God, instead of submitted to peer pressure, they would see that the standards are false. And if men were submitted to God, they would teach what true holiness is and also godly authority.
What wife would rebel against a husband, that loved his wife as his own body?

As to the bold section......Pure RUBBISH! Respectfully Sis. Renee I must disagree. I can without hesitation state that I am not under any peer pressure, wife pressure, or any other manmade pressure, and I BELIEVE in standards. The problem we (especially in Apostolicism/Pentecostalism) have is that standards, for the most part, are taught as holiness which is NOT what holiness is.

Standards are part/parcel to sanctification. In the OT the nation of Israel was to be sanctified from the world and unto God. Signs of their sanctification were standards concerning dress, diet, and worship/ceremony. One can argue about the ridiculous standards they had, but God set them in place regardless of how silly they seemed to them or us. For example. they could not wear clothes that were made of mixed fabric (i.e. cotton/wool or cotton/silk). Why? (I think it would be safe to say that nearly all of us would be lost (law breakers) today if this law was to be enforced today. Just look at your tags....nearly everything we wear is a mixture of materials.) The only thing we can see as the reason WHY God made this rule was so that when people looked at an Israelite they knew....those people are different....much like the Amish of today. The list can go on and on....603 of them to be exact, many of which have no reasonable explanation other than that God wanted His people to be different than those around them.

Standards are NOT what saves us, nor do they make us holy. We all know people who abide by "the standards" who are vile and wicked in their attitude and spirit bearing ungodly fruit in their lives/actions. They are "set apart" in appearance but do not possess an ounce of holiness. The truth is that even the "liberal" among us have some "standards." The challenge is who's standard do we abide by? Personally I believe there are absolute biblical standards which apply universally. Then there are standards which may be a personal "setting apart" unto God. And IMO standards are not limited to dress. There are standards of conduct and worship that make us different as well.

IMO the biggest problem we have with modesty and other biblical standards, is that we are too caught up in adapting to the culture and practices of the country we are passing through instead of the country we are citizens of.

[Sasha]

Since God apparently once had standards for His people and at some point, those standards were done away with, who then set different standards, and why did they apparently keep changing for men but not for women?

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by bishoph

As to the bold section......Pure RUBBISH! Respectfully Sis. Renee I must disagree. I can without hesitation state that I am not under any peer pressure, wife pressure, or any other manmade pressure, and I BELIEVE in standards. The problem we (especially in Apostolicism/Pentecostalism) have is that standards, for the most part, are taught as holiness which is NOT what holiness is.

Thank you for admitting that standards taught as holiness are NOT what holiness is. It is hard to get most OP to admit that.

Originally Posted by bishoph

Standards are part/parcel to sanctification. In the OT the nation of Israel was to be sanctified from the world and unto God. Signs of their sanctification were standards concerning dress, diet, and worship/ceremony. One can argue about the ridiculous standards they had, but God set them in place regardless of how silly they seemed to them or us. For example. they could not wear clothes that were made of mixed fabric (i.e. cotton/wool or cotton/silk). Why? (I think it would be safe to say that nearly all of us would be lost (law breakers) today if this law was to be enforced today. Just look at your tags....nearly everything we wear is a mixture of materials.) The only thing we can see as the reason WHY God made this rule was so that when people looked at an Israelite they knew....those people are different....much like the Amish of today. The list can go on and on....603 of them to be exact, many of which have no reasonable explanation other than that God wanted His people to be different than those around them.

So, why do you pick and choose which "standards" from the OT to apply? IF you truly believe that Jesus came, and abolished the law, and changed it all at Calvary, and that the greatest commandment from Him is to love God, and love one another... why are you going BACK to the OT to pick, choose and establish rules for today?

Originally Posted by bishoph

Standards are NOT what saves us, nor do they make us holy. We all know people who abide by "the standards" who are vile and wicked in their attitude and spirit bearing ungodly fruit in their lives/actions. They are "set apart" in appearance but do not possess an ounce of holiness. The truth is that even the "liberal" among us have some "standards." The challenge is who's standard do we abide by? Personally I believe there are absolute biblical standards which apply universally. Then there are standards which may be a personal "setting apart" unto God. And IMO standards are not limited to dress. There are standards of conduct and worship that make us different as well.

I totally agree that the teaching of standards has created a mindset that if you comply on the external, the inside slides by without a glance. It is a sad thing, but if you look at the Pharisees in Jesus' time, you'll see Jesus accusing them of exactly the same thing.

Originally Posted by bishoph

IMO the biggest problem we have with modesty and other biblical standards, is that we are too caught up in adapting to the culture and practices of the country we are passing through instead of the country we are citizens of.

I don't have a problem with women dressing modestly, with long hair, and such. The problem is when these things are equated with *SALVATION*, and you must understand that this is the main problem with all this.