Sinful housework

[Michael The Disciple]

Here is a problem with some of the progressive sanctification teaching.

Its true we don't learn everything in a day. However we could learn and grow a lot faster.

Here is the difference between the true New Testament Church and the Churches of today.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Matt 28 18-20

When they witnessed and one responded in baptism their training began immediately. They taught the new convert all the commandments of Christ! This caused a radical change in their lives.

In many of todays Churches there is a hesitancy about teaching commandments. We don't want to offend anyone. After all they might get offended and leave the group!

Besides that I have noticed people spend much time then "counseling" the new convert about all the many addictions, mental problems, family problems, until it becomes all about themselves!

Converts then start out with the idea its all about their life and happiness! Then if anyone ever gets around to begin to train them in righteousness and holiness they are condemned as being "Pharisees".

So the early Church taught Christ and his commandments immediately whereas today many will never be able to get to the point of someone showing them the need of separating their lives to him.

They are spoiled early on by "Christians" telling them its not about keeping commandments.

Well its not JUST about keeping commandments. Its about loving Jesus as defined BY HIM!

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 14:21

The love relationship between the person of Jesus and his disciple cannot occur apart from the love HE presents.

Any Evangelical talk of love relationship with Christ must be examined on this basis. According to Jesus those who do not keep his commandments are NOT in a love relationship with him.

He that loveth me NOT keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me. John 14:24

So it all comes down to love! But love defined by Jesus.

[Michael The Disciple]

So what is expected of babes in Christ? You will hear people say things like it may take decades for someone to grow before they overcome sin.

Hear the words of the Holy Spirit.

1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, 2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 1 Peter 2:1

Does the Apostle tell the babes they need to stop cussin, smoking, and drinkin? Nope!

He goes right to the heart issues! He does not consider turning from malice, guile, hypocrisy and envy something that will take decades to do. Friends he's talking to BABES!

See the total difference between the Apostles doctrine and what goes on today?

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

In many of todays Churches there is a hesitancy about teaching commandments. We don't want to offend anyone. After all they might get offended and leave the group!

Yes, and that is because the true gospel is not presented. People are led to believe Jesus is like Santa Claus, just believe, do good works, and you'll be saved. I have rarely heard the words of Jesus taught on, especially the Sermon on the Mount, mainly because it is heavy stuff to the one who doesn't want to give up all and follow Jesus. So, rather than turn people away, a false gospel is presented.

When the young man came to Jesus, and realized all he would have to "give up" to serve Jesus, he then turned away. He didn't really have faith to believe that everything he gave up, would not matter in the light of eternity, but he forsook the ONLY ONE who could fulfill his deepest heart's desires, in order to keep his material things.

I see that scenario today in the way the gospel is presented to people. If people were really made to understand the cost of serving Jesus, yet the most beautiful reward, and glory that awaits us, then the cost of today, would not compare to the riches that await us beyond this life.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So the early Church taught Christ and his commandments immediately whereas today many will never be able to get to the point of someone showing them the need of separating their lives to him.

They are spoiled early on by "Christians" telling them its not about keeping commandments.

Well its not JUST about keeping commandments. Its about loving Jesus as defined BY HIM!

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 14:21

The love relationship between the person of Jesus and his disciple cannot occur apart from the love HE presents.

So it all comes down to love! But love defined by Jesus.

Yes, it takes a personal face to face loving relationship with Jesus to be willing to follow Him.

Bypassing this in any way, shape, or form is the greatest mistake people make in trying to be a Christian.

Humanity would rather follow a list of rules created either by themselves or someone else, or a group they below to, and follow those rules.... hoping to slide into the pearly gates.... rather then surrender their will to the Lord and know the true joy and experience of fellowship with the Lord.

Complete surrender, and willingness to follow JESUS, and not just following a man-made set of rules.... will bring the greatest joy to the life of a believer.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by MarieA27

I was mainly asking, because you keep saying that we can't be perfect, and was wondering how you defined it since you were saying that. By your definition up there, I don't see why you can't be perfect based on what you said.

And also, do you view perfect as someone who has NEVER sinned? And if someone have sinned, but since coming into the truth of God, they made their way to cease from sinning, and walked and lived their life according to the scriptures, in their heart, words and deeds, do you still not see that person as perfect?

Also you keep talking about once you have obtained perfection, that you can just rest and don't have to worry about anything anymore, and I don't think that I've had said that, nor do I believe that.

I partially define perfection as not sinning, living a holy and righteous life, letting the word govern your actions, your deeds, your words, living a life according to the scriptures, doing what you know to do that is right, not letting sin reign in your body, not giving place to the devil in your heart. Pretty much what MTD said, being pure in your heart through all of this.


I don't view sin as some basic, natural humanity, as if sin is just being human. I view sin as simply disobedience to God.

I believe that the complete work of sanctification or perfection will not be completed until we attain our glorified bodies, but we can live overcoming lives until that day comes.

I agree with your view of sin, that is "disobedience to God." But because we live with this fallen carnal nature, we cannot let our guard down to our flesh nature, but must constantly keep the spotlight of the word of God, and the spirit of God on within our hearts to pinpoint out any disobedience to God that we might have, and because of this we can be victorious.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I believe that the complete work of sanctification or perfection will not be completed until we attain our glorified bodies, but we can live overcoming lives until that day comes.

I agree with your view of sin, that is "disobedience to God." But because we live with this fallen carnal nature, we cannot let our guard down to our flesh nature, but must constantly keep the spotlight of the word of God, and the spirit of God on within our hearts to pinpoint out any disobedience to God that we might have, and because of this we can be victorious.

Why do we have to live with a carnal/fallen nature all of our life?

[Luke]

Originally Posted by renee819

Luke, I've heard the term, but what is 'the second work of grace? Isn't that a Nazerine term?
Since the term is not in the Bible, how would you know that you had received it? And wouldn't that be the Holy Ghost?

No, wait, Repentance must be the first
Baptism, the second.
That would make the Holy Ghost the 'third work of grace.'

I believe that we must die daily, and as we do so, we are sanctified. If we don't, we are not sanctified.

Why do we have to die daily, does the flesh revive every night while we sleep? If so would it not be better to always stay awake?

Please forgive my seeming sarcasm. I truly do not understand the thought process that we must die daily since once somthing id dead unless it is revived by God it remains dead.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Luke

Why do we have to live with a carnal/fallen nature all of our life?

Ask Jesus. Ask Paul. I don't know. I didn't make the rule book.

Romans 8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

The spirit was given to us to mortify the deeds of the body, so obviously something is not completely, totally dead. However, if the Spirit reigns in our life, the law of sin doesn't, and we can live above recurrent fallen sin, but we must be aware of the attacks of our flesh nature or satan to try to make us stumble and fall.... and so therefore we are given the Spirit to "mortify the deeds of the body" and by doing so, we shall live.

Paul also says this,

Romans 7:24-25 "O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin."

Our minds, spirit and soul serve the Lord, while our flesh nature remains in the hold of sin, and it is a warfare, but through the spirit of Jesus Christ, we can mortify the deeds of the body, and continue serving the law of God.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Luke

Why do we have to die daily, does the flesh revive every night while we sleep? If so would it not be better to always stay awake?

Please forgive my seeming sarcasm. I truly do not understand the thought process that we must die daily since once somthing id dead unless it is revived by God it remains dead.

Read through Romans 5 onward. Paul deals a lot with this subject in those chapters.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Ask Jesus. Ask Paul. I don't know. I didn't make the rule book.

Romans 8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

The spirit was given to us to mortify the deeds of the body, so obviously something is not completely, totally dead. However, if the Spirit reigns in our life, the law of sin doesn't, and we can live above recurrent fallen sin, but we must be aware of the attacks of our flesh nature or satan to try to make us stumble and fall.... and so therefore we are given the Spirit to "mortify the deeds of the body" and by doing so, we shall live.

Paul also says this,

Romans 7:24-25 "O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin."

Our minds, spirit and soul serve the Lord, while our flesh nature remains in the hold of sin, and it is a warfare, but through the spirit of Jesus Christ, we can mortify the deeds of the body, and continue serving the law of God.

[Michael The Disciple]

Brother Luke,

I don't doubt that you are walking without sin. To me this is normal for a Christian. But if there is no warfare why this?

3 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: 18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; Eph. 6:13-18

Paul seems to be interested in equipping the saints for battle!

Now if you are overcoming (which I don't doubt) you must be availing yourself of the things Paul speaks of here.

As there are clichés among the Evangelical faith that I don't take seriously like "we all sin every day" there are probably among some "Holiness" groups. Such as "There is no daily battle".