Sinful housework

[Michael The Disciple]

-Love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength.
-Demonstrate that love for God by loving others as yourself.

Exactly right.

How does Jesus say he knows that you love him?

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 14:21

So yes it all comes down to love as defined by Jesus.

He also specifically defines who DOES NOT love him.

He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me. John 14:24

Jesus defines who loves him and who loves him not.

How does Jesus know you love OTHERS?

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 1 John 5:2-3

The way he sees it you love OTHERS if you keep HIS COMMANDMENTS.

So in the context of a discussion concerning perfection and growing in Christ we must let HIM set the definitions of love.

Has Jesus promised eternal life in his kingdom to them who LOVE HIM or to those who DO NOT love him?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Exactly right.

How does Jesus say he knows that you love him?

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 14:21

Michael,

These are His commandments:

-Love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength.
-Demonstrate that love for God by loving others as yourself.

In short, you show God that you love Him by loving others as yourself. This is what it is all about and in this the entire law is fulfilled (Galatians 5:14).

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Michael,

These are His commandments:

-Love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength.
-Demonstrate that love for God by loving others as yourself.

In short, you show God that you love Him by loving others as yourself. This is what it is all about and in this the entire law is fulfilled (Galatians 5:14).

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Matt 28:20

So the "all things" he commanded them was actually two things?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Matt 28:20

So the "all things" he commanded them was actually two things?

Essentially, yes. Everything Jesus taught is rooted in these two principles. Now, I'm not saying that Jesus didn't command us to baptize. Nor that Jesus didn't teach that remarriage is only honorable in cases involving immorality. What I'm saying is that these two principles are the heart of the matter and are the standards by which we will be judged. A person can baptize 10,000 people and not love them. A person can chose to only remarry under biblical conditions allowing such... but that doesn't mean that they truly love their spouse. A person can swear off pornography, but not love their neighbor. A person can feed the hungry and not love them. These two laws are the eternal law of Heaven. The Law of Love. Whatever you do for Jesus, whatever teaching you seek to obey, whatever tradition you hold, whatever you do at all will be judged in accordance to if it was rooted in a love for God... and a love for others.

So, whatever we believe Jesus bade us to do... if we have no love... it's absolutely meaningless. And here's the kicker... one can love Jesus and others and not fully understand everything he taught. Or even think some commandments don't apply in this dispensation or whatever... even in that person's misunderstanding... they have love. They actually got it.

I'll say again what I said in a previous post:

God is love. That means that God's very substance and essence is... "love". Yes, God is "holy"... but the Bible doesn't say that God is "holiness". Therefore all admonitions to be holy are predicated upon... love. Thus, love is holy. And holiness is "lovingness". I believe that at the end of the day we will be judged not on what church we attended, not on what our pet doctrines were, not on dress codes, not on dietary codes, not on the sacramental traditions we've embraced, not on holidays celebrated, not on family pedigree, nor even as to how "moral" we were by popular opinion ... we'll be judged in accordance to love...

Did we love Him with all our heart, mind, soul and strength?
Did we demonstrate this love for Him by loving others as ourselves?

I believe that when our life on earth is reviewed... these two questions will be asked regarding it all. If our actions and thoughts were predicated upon our love for God and our love for others... we will be rewarded. If not... we will suffer shame and loss.

This is the essence of true spirituality. This is what God is desperately trying to get mankind to understand.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Aquila

So, whatever we believe Jesus bade us to do... if we have no love... it's absolutely meaningless. And here's the kicker... one can love Jesus and others and not fully understand everything he taught. Or even think some commandments don't apply in this dispensation or whatever... even in that person's misunderstanding... they have love. They actually got it.

I agree with your post to a very large extent in that all of the commandments of God are basicly contained in loving God with all of our being and in loving our neighbour as ourself. At the same time as Michael pointed out Jesus did say that if we love Him then we would keep His commandments. The fact is if I truly love God as He commands then i will be holy and walk righteously because this is what He commanded.

As to the underlinded section of your post that is where i begin to have some trouble. If a person is truly saved they are a child of God and therefore they are under the care, direction and protection of God. What type of parent would see thier child acting in a way that is detremential to them and not warn them of the danger? Even so with God when I or any other christian begin to go in a direction that will lead to sin God as a loving and good Father will warn us but if i refuse to heed His warning s then i am walking in rebellion weather i understand the reason or not. THis is why obedience is required instead of perfect understanding. A toddler walking toward a hot stove does not understand the concept of heat and burning but a good parent who sees the danger will attempt to keep the child away from the danger but if the child is persistent then the time will come when in spite of the parents best measures the child will touch something hot and get burnt even though he does not understand all about heat. Same is true in the spiritual sense. For this reason it is perfectly acceptable to point out that no sin will enter heaven.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Luke

I agree with your post to a very large extent in that all of the commandments of God are basicly contained in loving God with all of our being and in loving our neighbour as ourself. At the same time as Michael pointed out Jesus did say that if we love Him then we would keep His commandments. The fact is if I truly love God as He commands then i will be holy and walk righteously because this is what He commanded.

Luke,

I fully agree. However, the "commandments" of Jesus are to love God and to demonstrate that love by loving others. Now, many of the things we call "commandments" are "teachings" wherein Jesus explains what to do in various contexts. But ultimately every teaching/commandment is summed up in loving God and loving others. Therefore the point is... if we love Jesus we will love God with our of our being and demonstrate that love by loving others as ourselvse. These are the commandments Jesus is talking about.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Now what does Jesus say about this...

John 15:9-14
King James Version (KJV)
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

This is because...

Mark 12:28-31
King James Version (KJV)
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Why are these the "greatest" commandments?

Matthew 22:36-40
King James Version (KJV)
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

These two commandments are the very basis of every other law of God. Everything God commanded is an effort to express God's desire that we love Him above all and love our neighbour as ourselves. Once we understand this, the Law has done it's job. It really is completed and perfected in us. For example, why did God forbid pork? Because it was associated with pagan feasts. To partake would tempt one to put a false God before God. Now, we know there is nothing wrong with pork in and of itself (even though it is listed as an abomination/idolatry). The issue was loving only God. Now that we've gasped that... this law isn't necessary. It need not be obeyed "to the letter" in us. We can now freely eat pork... as long as we serve only God and receive it with thanksgiving to Him and Him alone. Also, to eat pork in the context wherein pork was forbidden could tempt others into idolatry, even if we gave God thanks for it. To eat pork in that context would fail the test of loving God and loving others. Every commandment of the law is essentially like this. Thus, to demonstrate one's love for God by loving others as one's self is to fulfill the ENTIRE law with one single action that results in a state of being... being loving towards all. This is why Paul wrote...

Galatians 5:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The entire law is fulfilled in one teaching, one commandment, loving others as ourselves.

[Aquila]

What we like to do is say,

"Yes Jesus commanded us to love God and to love others. Jesus also said that if we love Him we will keep His commandments. Therefore, let's see... let's look at everything He commanded... we must keep all these commandments or one doesn't love God properly."

Notice how in doing this we added to the very commandments Jesus told us to keep. The commandments that are the greatest of all because they are the ver basis of every other teaching in every other dispensation and/or covenant. Not only that... it becomes highly subjective. Suddenly every teacher that teaches this offers his or her list of what they believe Jesus commanded that is essential. Then we end up with more than one list to live by to prove that we love God. Some include dietary laws, Mosaic dress codes, sabbath observances, etc., etc.. Then we end up with divisions, denominations, cults of personality, etc. It's a legalistic trap. Soon we're battling out over eactly what Jesus truly commanded and not getting down to actually obeying the key commandmens He intended us to obey. This leaves God shaking His head at us saying,

"My precious children. Just love me. And show me that you love me by loving others as yourself."

We divorce the commandments to love God and to love others from being the very commandments Jesus was teaching us to keep and therein the waters are muddied.

[J4Truth]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I think it remains a plural event that can take place more than once, but we are all entitled to our opinions, and our personal interpretations. What matters the most is that our hearts are clean and pure before the Lord, and that we don't treat too carelessly our "garden plot", but tend it as carefully and best we know how. I would never "round up" my garden, because that kills all things, both good and bad. There are better ways to kill weeds than round up. But... you are entitled to your own opinion, and your own garden... so I'll leave you to tend yours, while I tend mine



Great scriptures. I believe we are freed from the taskmaster of sin, but yet, that nature is not completely dead yet. I've not ever met a perfect man without sin, but Jesus is the only perfect man to have ever lived... which is why your analogy sounds good... but doesn't ring true.

I still like my analogy better... of a captive nature under a different ruler, but still not submitted... but again... I won't push what I think onto you. It remains a personal interpretation... and I'm content to let you "round up" your garden, while I till and pull, and constantly watch over, and tend carefully my garden... and let the Lord be the final judge....

What do the bold mean? You never met someone who wasn't sinning before God? Or you never met someone who had never sinned sometime in their life? To be perfect is not to have never ever sinned in the past. You keep seeming to try to claim "be ye perfect" is only applicable to people who have never ever sinned aka Jesus only. Is that you problem with the call to perfection? You think its to have never ever sinned at all in you entire life?

[Aquila]

So at the judgment many religionists will be gearing up to see God judge them on how well they kept their little list of commandments. However, as each thought and action is reviewed, the eyes of God will be looking to see how each thought and/or action demonstrated that one loved Him by loving others. God will not be impressed with hairstyle, dress, ornamentation or the lack thereof. God will not note what church one attended. Nor will God be impressed with how "moral" one seemed to be. God will simply be looking for one thing... love. If a thought and/or action was grounded in a love for God and a love for others... one will be rewarded. If not... one will suffer shame and loss.

Sadly, for most religionists their little lists have become standards by which they judge others... not love others. In this there is a total reversal. What was intended to impress God through religious performance becomes the very thing that brings condemnation.

[Aquila]

I would also like to add... as it relates to the religionist and their little list of rules... they will be judged in accordance to the measure with which they judged others. You see... their list of rules has become the very yardstick by which God will judge them. Their degree of judgment against others who did not obey their little list becomes the degree of judgment through which God approaches how they obeyed/broke their own rules.

So... the more rules one establishes by which they measure themselves against others, the more requirements they have to have actually met and exceeded. The harsher they were on those who didn't embrace their little rules, the harsher God will be on their own inability to live by their own rules.

In a very real way... we set up the very context by which we will be judged. As for God... He is only desiring to see love. It is we who often want the rules and religion to feed our ego and sense of self worth. And so... God will honor our desire and give it too us, and judging us by our rules and religion in full measure.