End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

The word "prophet" derives from the Greek word "to announce." A prophet of the LORD God spoke His words. The prophet spoke the words of God, not his own. He was a mouthpiece which God declared His message to men.

Now prophecy has both a broad and a narrow meaning. The broad meaning can be defined as to "forth-tell", and the narrow meaning means to "fore-tell."



TO ANNOUNCE....

JEWISH WRITINGS DESCRIBE PROPHETS AS: A prophet is an individual who receives a message from G-d to transmit to the people.


Baker's dictionary: rophet, Prophetess, Prophecy
A prophet was an individual who received a call from God to be God's spokesperson, often connected with some crisis that was about to occur, and then announced God's message of judgment and/or deliverance to Israel and the nations. The importance of this office can be seen in the fact that the word "prophet" occurs over 300 times in the Old Testament and almost 125 times in the New Testament. The term "prophetess" appears 6 times in the Old Testament and 2 times in the New Testament.

proph·et
ˈpräfit/
noun
1.
a person regarded as an inspired teacher or proclaimer of the will of God.

another dictionary says...

A prophet is a spokesperson for God. The prophet admonishes, warns, directs, encourages, intercedes, teaches and counsels. He brings the word of God to the people of God and calls the people to respond.


proph·et·ess
ˈpräfətəs/
noun
1.
a female prophet.




The doctrine of the New Testament has given women permission to preach (prophesy) before the church and the world( Acts2:16-18)-It shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:,and in the book of Acts we see women working in the ministry, but alongside or with the men of the ministry.(Acts18)

A prophetess is simply a female prophet. Just like a prophet, a prophetess is a person called by God. A prophet (male or female) is the mouthpiece for the one who sends him or her; the prophet speaks on behalf of the sender (Exodus 7:1-2). A prophet is considered a seer (1 Samuel 9:9), because God gives him or her the gift of foreknowledge. God reveals his secrets to prophets (Amos 3:7), and true prophesy is initiated by the Holy Ghost (2 Peter 1:21). 1 Corinthians 12:28 and Ephesians 4:11

Even during times when women held low standing in the eyes of men, the Bible tells stories of women in God-given positions of power and influence. After all, it is just like God to choose what mankind considers as the "weak things of the world to put to shame the things which [mankind considers] are mighty" (1 Corinthians 1:26-31).

Notice this:To prophesy is to preach according to Webster (National Dictionary of English Language P. F. Collier & Son, New York 1937). Prophetess “female preacher” (Young’s Analytical Concordance pg. 781).
Some are quick to say they prophesied only in homes, and not in church, but Ephesians 4:12 says, “Even so ye, for as much as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.”
..
Just as a man can edify the church so can a woman edify the church...

Sigh - For the 10th time biblical prophecy is NOT, nor has EVER been a sermon from the Scriptures - but if you somehow think it is - I keep asking you to demonstrate where a woman has done this FROM THE BIBLE ITSELF:____________?


Stillllllll waiting .


Check back in later tonight.

[KeptByTheWord]

RDP, you and I agree on some things, which is that a woman should be in submission to her husband. I think that we can shake on that one.

However, you think that a women needs to be silent in the church, which you identify as being that she should not be in the pulpit expounding the scriptures. From what you have said, you believe that she can speak, sing, testify, and prophecy, yet not stand behind the pulpit to teach from scripture.

Herein, you have put your own clarifications on the word "silence".

And as it is your own interpretation, I am fine with that. I don't expect everyone to see things the way I do. I have presented my understanding, recognizing there are always differences of opinion, even as there were differences of opinion in the NT church.

I have shown that I understand the word silence, to be in the context of a woman who has submitted to her husband, and is not trying to usurp his authority, and when prophesying, and evangelizing, as long as that woman is in submission to her husband, then she is permitted to speak, sing, prophesy, and evangelize to spread the gospel, thus a place in the work of the Lord for a woman evangelist, and preacher. The lexicons do include the word husband, along with man, and so whether it was meant to be husband, or man... is again something theologians and Greek philosophers still do not agree on. You can choose your sources that agree with you, and that's fine.

Scripture does bear out that a woman should not be teaching men. Sis. Alvear's WB example is a good one (above), which is a situation that had the approval and support of her husband. I agree that it is not a good idea for a woman to be alone with men, and vice versa, but it is better to obey God than our traditions, and so we must always leave room for God to be able to work, and not deny the moving of His spirit because of our traditions. Yes, Jesus was sinless, but He did many things as an example for us. I believe the woman at the well was a beautiful example of how tradition can be triumphed for the ultimate purpose and expression of the will of God. Jesus broke many such traditions in the short time he was on earth.

According to Luke 24:47, being a preacher of the gospel is actually a calling that every spirit filled believer should be doing. Jesus said to go and preach to all those filled with the spirit. We should all be doing the work of a preacher/evangelist, telling people the good news of Jesus wherever we go, and that doesn't have to be a platform, but in fact more often, it should be as we go about our daily business in life, bringing the gospel to those around us wherever we are at.

There are no qualifications given for an evangelist in scripture by Paul. And because of the great commission given by Jesus himself, women are free to share in that part of the ministry, as spirit filled believers.

When it comes to ministerial leadership positions, scripture does not really bear out that this is a place for a woman to be, unless it is a teaching position with other women/children. That is just my personal opinion, and certainly others have varying levels of understanding of that concept as well.

This debate could continue on and on with us arguing to the bitter end, and no one wins in that. I have stated my position, and you disagree, and that is fine. There are differing views with theologians, and lay men alike. There is not a 100% agreement across the board on any of the scriptures that have been discussed, and that will never change.

Finally, I don't answer to you, I answer to the Lord, and to my husband. My husband and I are in agreement with this, and this is where the case for me is rested.

I am not in this debate because of a desire to be a woman "preacher". I just see in scripture that there is a place for women whom God has called, and as long as they are in submission to their husbands, or male authority in their life, then God can, does and will use them.

I have nothing to win or lose in this debate, but I assume you probably do. However, I hope we can shake hands, and agree to disagree. You see things your way, which is fine, and I see things differently.

If the Apostle Paul were here to ask for sure, perhaps we could settle the debate once and for all... but he is not, and so the debates will continue to rage, while everyone settles their opinion somewhere in it all.

[Abiding Now]

To me, there's a major difference in a NT prophet and prophecy (gift of prophecy).

The NT prophet is one of the five ministries that God has put in His church for the perfecting of saints, work of the ministry and the edifying of the church. I believe the qualifier for these ministries is I Tim. 3:1 - 7


Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

NT prophecy is not one of those five ministries, but is a gift of the Spirit and a person does not necessarily have to be in the ministry to be used in the gift of prophecy (or any of the other 8 gifts of the Spirit).

1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

jmho

[Sister Alvear]

The reason I am talking so much about prophecy is there is NO scripture that says that a woman cannot preach and the two scriptures anti women preachers use is 1 Cor. 14:34 and I Tim. 2:12...however 1 Cor is a question that Paul answers and I will prove that later as my health permits and 1 Tim is a home relation teaching.
However IF 1 Cor meant what anti women preachers say it means then a woman could not utter her voice in church for that word silent there does not mean reverence or just passive silence but it means total silence ...without making a sound....and that would go against hundreds of scriptures....

We can learn the importance of particular issues in the Bible by how much the Bible talks about something. The teachings of Jesus are the greatest revelations of God’s truth. Jesus never taught on this issue. He never said women could not preach. But Jesus did say in Matthew chapter 28 verse 19, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” This commandment of Jesus applies to all believers.

The most common passage on spiritual gifts is Ephesians chapter 4 and verse 8, “wherefore He saith, when He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.” And verse 11 says, “And He gave some, apostles; and some prophets; and some evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers.” When the Bible uses the word “men” in verse 8, it uses the word “anthropos.” This makes sense, for both women and men have spiritual gifts that God gives them when they are born into the family of God. The word “anthropos” is used in the Bible to include the idea of all mankind whether male or female, black or white, bond or free. To further understand the idea behind this word we will look at I Timothy chapter 2 and verse 4 which says, “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” The word “anthropos” is used here...mankind....

Ephesians 4:12, “For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.” This is the purpose of spiritual gifts, to help God build His eternal kingdom.

[Sister Alvear]

Knowing several languages is often a blessing when studying the Bible....

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

proph·et·ess
ˈpräfətəs/
noun
1.
a female prophet.




The doctrine of the New Testament has given women permission to preach (prophesy) before the church and the world( Acts2:16-18)-It shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:,and in the book of Acts we see women working in the ministry, but alongside or with the men of the ministry.(Acts18)


Still waiting on the passage which "gives women permission to preach before the church, or where we can ever see women "preaching sermons from the Scriptures to men":____________? Been waiting for eons now !


A prophetess is simply a female prophet. Just like a prophet, a prophetess is a person called by God. A prophet (male or female) is the mouthpiece for the one who sends him or her; the prophet speaks on behalf of the sender (Exodus 7:1-2). A prophet is considered a seer (1 Samuel 9:9), because God gives him or her the gift of foreknowledge. God reveals his secrets to prophets (Amos 3:7), and true prophesy is initiated by the Holy Ghost (2 Peter 1:21). 1 Corinthians 12:28 and Ephesians 4:11


Difference in the office of a "prophet" vs. one who has merely "prophesied" - Just as there's a difference in an "electrician" & one who has done some electrical work around the house. Equivocation fallacy.


Even during times when women held low standing in the eyes of men, the Bible tells stories of women in God-given positions of power and influence. After all, it is just like God to choose what mankind considers as the "weak things of the world to put to shame the things which [mankind considers] are mighty" (1 Corinthians 1:26-31).

And specifically where can we read of a woman exercising authority over men with the Word of God - IN the actual Word of God:_____________? Cannot produce what does not exist now can we?


Notice this:To prophesy is to preach according to Webster (National Dictionary of English Language P. F. Collier & Son, New York 1937). Prophetess “female preacher” (Young’s Analytical Concordance pg. 781).


In the first place, it's just plumb silly to introduce "Webster" into biblical discussion . Secondly, I've already asked you (which, go figure, you completely ignored) if you also believe in multiple "Creators" since Young equally taught the same ? Guess we just pick & choose what we accept from Young & what we reject - all to accommodate our theological biases of course .


Some are quick to say they prophesied only in homes, and not in church, but Ephesians 4:12 says, “Even so ye, for as much as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.”
..
Just as a man can edify the church so can a woman edify the church...

Of course women can "prophesy" - but biblical prophesy is not, nor has ever been, a premeditated sermon from the Scriptures to men as you are advocating (for the umpteenth time now ). Any woman who does this is in direct defiance to God-Breathed Scripture & out of her place (as is the pastor who allowed it).


And, experience never trumps God's clear Word!

[rdp]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

RDP, you and I agree on some things, which is that a woman should be in submission to her husband. I think that we can shake on that one.

However, you think that a women needs to be silent in the church, which you identify as being that she should not be in the pulpit expounding the scriptures. From what you have said, you believe that she can speak, sing, testify, and prophecy, yet not stand behind the pulpit to teach from scripture.


A Pulpit really has nothing to do with it Sis. It's the expositing from Scripture in the church to men which is expressly forbidden in the Bible. Any woman who does this is in direct defiance to the clearly expressed Scriptures - as is the man who allowed her to do so.


Herein, you have put your own clarifications on the word "silence".


No M'aam, I'm just allowing the biblical texts to speak for & define themselves without my assistance.


And as it is your own interpretation, I am fine with that. I don't expect everyone to see things the way I do. I have presented my understanding, recognizing there are always differences of opinion, even as there were differences of opinion in the NT church.

I have shown that I understand the word silence, to be in the context of a woman who has submitted to her husband, and is not trying to usurp his authority, and when prophesying, and evangelizing, as long as that woman is in submission to her husband, then she is permitted to speak, sing, prophesy, and evangelize to spread the gospel, thus a place in the work of the Lord for a woman evangelist, and preacher. The lexicons do include the word husband, along with man, and so whether it was meant to be husband, or man... is again something theologians and Greek philosophers still do not agree on.


But the lexicons qualify the definition as a secondary definition only when possessive marking occur - which they do not in I Timothy 2.11-15, which is why virtually no reputable translation (or even dis-reputable for that matter) adopts the "husband" or "wife" rendering.


It is honestly inconceivable to me how on earth any one could read these plain passages, the exegesis, grammar, syntax, lexical data, stated context (3.14-15) - somehow (?) still conclude that God "calls women to preach in the church"??



You can choose your sources that agree with you, and that's fine.


I assure you, if you knew me, I do not hand-pick my sources - I very carefully investigate the grammar of a given text & allow that inspired text to inform my doctrinal posture. Simple Sis.


Scripture does bear out that a woman should not be teaching men. Sis. Alvear's WB example is a good one (above), which is a situation that had the approval and support of her husband. I agree that it is not a good idea for a woman to be alone with men, and vice versa, but it is better to obey God than our traditions, and so we must always leave room for God to be able to work, and not deny the moving of His spirit because of our traditions. Yes, Jesus was sinless, but He did many things as an example for us. I believe the woman at the well was a beautiful example of how tradition can be triumphed for the ultimate purpose and expression of the will of God. Jesus broke many such traditions in the short time he was on earth.

According to Luke 24:47, being a preacher of the gospel is actually a calling that every spirit filled believer should be doing. Jesus said to go and preach to all those filled with the spirit. We should all be doing the work of a preacher/evangelist, telling people the good news of Jesus wherever we go, and that doesn't have to be a platform, but in fact more often, it should be as we go about our daily business in life, bringing the gospel to those around us wherever we are at.

There are no qualifications given for an evangelist in scripture by Paul. And because of the great commission given by Jesus himself, women are free to share in that part of the ministry, as spirit filled believers.


Certainly women should carry out the great commission & witness to the lost - but, again, this is a meshing of contexts (segregated hermeneutics vs. integrated hermeneutics). I Tim. 2 & I Cor. 14 is instructing church polity - not winning the lost. Just sayin'.



When it comes to ministerial leadership positions, scripture does not really bear out that this is a place for a woman to be, unless it is a teaching position with other women/children. That is just my personal opinion, and certainly others have varying levels of understanding of that concept as well.


Amen Sister. It is also the Bible's "opinion" .


This debate could continue on and on with us arguing to the bitter end, and no one wins in that. I have stated my position, and you disagree, and that is fine. There are differing views with theologians, and lay men alike. There is not a 100% agreement across the board on any of the scriptures that have been discussed, and that will never change.

Finally, I don't answer to you, I answer to the Lord, and to my husband. My husband and I are in agreement with this, and this is where the case for me is rested.

I am not in this debate because of a desire to be a woman "preacher". I just see in scripture that there is a place for women whom God has called, and as long as they are in submission to their husbands, or male authority in their life, then God can, does and will use them.


Of course God has a place for women to work in His kingdom, but that place is not teaching & preaching to men in the church from the Bible (I Tim. 2.11-14; I Cor. 14.34). There are innumerable other "trees in the garden" for Eve to partake of (outreach, prophesy, prayer, instructing younger women regarding submission, etc., etc.) - why venture back into the area clearly restricted by God's Word?



I have nothing to win or lose in this debate, but I assume you probably do. However, I hope we can shake hands, and agree to disagree. You see things your way, which is fine, and I see things differently.

If the Apostle Paul were here to ask for sure, perhaps we could settle the debate once and for all... but he is not, and so the debates will continue to rage, while everyone settles their opinion somewhere in it all.

I have seen first-hand the dysfunctional families of women who did not know their biblical place & the family embarrassment-humiliation of an unsubmitted-manipulative-hollerin' & screamin' "woman preacher" - & it's despicable. I'm sorry for being so abrasive, but we've endured it in pastoring, indirect family, church, etc. It is clear & flagrant defiance of Scripture under the supposed guise of "disagreement."


I will say that I do appreciate your spirit in this last post though . yes, we will adamantly "disagree," but I'm glad we can at least (presumably) close the discussion (?) on a positive note (& I agree with much of what you've said above).


God Bless anyway.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Abiding Now

To me, there's a major difference in a NT prophet and prophecy (gift of prophecy).

The NT prophet is one of the five ministries that God has put in His church for the perfecting of saints, work of the ministry and the edifying of the church. I believe the qualifier for these ministries is I Tim. 3:1 - 7


Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

NT prophecy is not one of those five ministries, but is a gift of the Spirit and a person does not necessarily have to be in the ministry to be used in the gift of prophecy (or any of the other 8 gifts of the Spirit).

1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

jmho

100% biblically correct !

[shag]

I reckon I basically see things the way Paul Barnett does: (not that I have a dog in the fight, nor do I want one in it.)


http://paulbarnett.info/2011/04/sham...inthians-1435/

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

The reason I am talking so much about prophecy is there is NO scripture that says that a woman cannot preach


Mere denial of the biblical texts does not serve as evidence, but rather, mere denial ! Yes, the Bible expressly forbids women to preach/teach in the church: "Women should be silent during the church meetings. It is not proper for them to speak. They should be submissive, just as the law says." (Which means they're not in submission if they do "speak" [also translated as "preach" BTW] in this context).


In fact (as referenced above), the Greek verb translated "speak" in I Cor. 14.34 is equally translated "preach" at least six times in the KJV. See also here: http://biblehub.com/strongs/greek/2980.htm. Sorry Sister, most respectfully, the Bible says the diametrical-polar opposite of your assertion here.


and the two scriptures anti women preachers use is 1 Cor. 14:34 and I Tim. 2:12...however 1 Cor is a question that Paul answers and I will prove that later as my health permits and 1 Tim is a home relation teaching.


Good, I'll try to offer another exegetical rejoinder when you do (which I've done over & over in this thread - only to be COMPLETELY ignored). Paul himself was a "anti-women-preacher" .


Here, since leading grammarian Dr. Daniel Wallace's syntactical analysis of I Tim. 2.12 has been entirely ignored so far, hey, what's one more shot at it ?


"Gune and Aner are words which mean 'adult female' and 'adult male' in their unmarked meanings. Only if there are sufficient contextual clues that husband and wife are in view do the words mean 'wife' and 'husband.' The definite article or 'idios' (one's own) or a possessive pronoun is required to show that husband and wife are in the text. None of these things occur in 1 Tim 2. The article occurs in 1 Cor 11, but only because it is syntactically required by the construction. Both passages are clearly talking about the Christian community in worship, which would of course involve single adults and married couples. Take a look at other passages that are clearly speaking about husband and wife--e.g., Eph 5, 1 Peter 3--and you'll see that they use these signals to note that husband and wife are in view.



More importantly, Paul himself specifically stated that the reason he wrote his letter to Timothy was to set in order church conduct:


14 I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long; 15 but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God..."



Ignore it until dooms-day Sister, but it will still be there in eternity (I also have numerous other email quotes from world-renown exegetes such as Dr. Douglas Moo - but I'll save them for later - only to be ignored, of course) !




However IF 1 Cor meant what anti women preachers say it means then a woman could not utter her voice in church for that word silent there does not mean reverence or just passive silence but it means total silence ...without making a sound....and that would go against hundreds of scriptures....


It means what it says & says what it means?? But, in other words, you're essentially saying, "I cannot adequately reconcile my view with what the Bible PLAINLY says, so I'll run elsewhere for refuge!" . The context of I Cor. 14.34 is women taking the floor & "speaking in the church." And, the Greek proposition translated "in" (ἐν) equally denotes "among" (http://biblehub.com/greek/1722.htm) - as in "among the church."


As a Greek professor used to repeatedly say, "Words mean what they do according to context" & the "context" in I Cor. 14 is the gifts of the Spirit & those officially taking the floor in "speaking in the churches."



You are merely telling us what it does NOT mean, while not telling us what you think it DOES mean (and, no, Paul was not "quoting" anything here). No matter what interpretation one may append onto this passage, tell me, who would HONESTLY conclude that God "calls women to preach" while reading the following passage & allowing it to speak for itself?:


"Women should be silent during the church meetings. It is not proper for them to speak. They should be submissive, just as the law says."



Absolutely no one without an agenda!



We can learn the importance of particular issues in the Bible by how much the Bible talks about something. The teachings of Jesus are the greatest revelations of God’s truth. Jesus never taught on this issue. He never said women could not preach.


And He never sent out, nor endorsed a "woman-expositor-preacher" either. See where arguing from silence will land you every time?


But Jesus did say in Matthew chapter 28 verse 19, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” This commandment of Jesus applies to all believers.


Of course women should win the lost - And? Do you think this somehow invalidates the clear teachings of Paul??

The most common passage on spiritual gifts is Ephesians chapter 4 and verse 8, “wherefore He saith, when He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.” And verse 11 says, “And He gave some, apostles; and some prophets; and some evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers.” When the Bible uses the word “men” in verse 8, it uses the word “anthropos.” This makes sense, for both women and men have spiritual gifts that God gives them when they are born into the family of God. The word “anthropos” is used in the Bible to include the idea of all mankind whether male or female, black or white, bond or free. To further understand the idea behind this word we will look at I Timothy chapter 2 and verse 4 which says, “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” The word “anthropos” is used here...mankind....


Yes, I am well familiar with this Greek noun's function - And? How does this invalidate what the Scriptures clearly teach regarding this matter in I Timothy 2.11-3.15 or I Corinthians 14.34?


Ephesians 4:12, “For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.” This is the purpose of spiritual gifts, to help God build His eternal kingdom.

Not getting the point you're attempting to make here, or what you think this somehow proves?